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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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HAHAHAHA Another bubble in the bat tub.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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It would be nice if 10-20+ years down the line after a lasting peace it could return to 1 state, like Germany did.
But in inclusive democracy with all the built up hatred, with all the power concentrated on one side, and crazies on the other side who think they are justified killing innocent people. inclusive democracy ain't gonna happen.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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It did in South Africa! It Will in the ME.
Perhaps we should divest from Israel as we did in South Africa. That ended Apartheid and freed Nelson Mandella. It would also end the occupation and free Marwan Barghouti from Israeli prison. He is the one likely person who could unite the Palestinians in a peace effort.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
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"It would be nice if 10-20+ years down the line after a lasting peace it could return to 1 state, like Germany did.
But in inclusive democracy with all the built up hatred, with all the power concentrated on one side, and crazies on the other side who think they are justified killing innocent people. inclusive democracy ain't gonna happen."
It's a huge hurdle before humans on opposite sides of things can learn to accept each other, trust each other, and live together.
We can work toward that day and trust that it may one day happen, because such must be our destiny if we are to survive as living beings. Our power to kill gets stronger and more widespread every day.
We must never lose sight of this goal nor empower those who seek only to defeat the other side without a plan to heal them or include their interests, because any people who live in the denial of the world will inevitably surface with violence and mayhem.
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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UncleDoug:
""Israel will pre-emptively attack the Iran nuke sites."
I pray for this day, Jeff.
So that the Zionist regime will be wiped from the face of the map."
I know that there are people who want to see all of the Israelis completely annihilated, but I didn't realize that there were people who desired this so much that they pray every day for a nuclear war to make it happen.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
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He said "the Zionist Regime".He said nothing about annihilating all jews.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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" It did in South Africa! It Will in the ME."
South Africa was a lot less divided then the Israelis and the Palestinians. Also, the whites gave up power only because they were confident that the blacks would treat them fairly and not try to "wipe them off the map." The Palestinians have a lot to learn from Mandela and the South Africans.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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Are you kidding GC? The minority white South Africans were terrified that the Black majority would swarm over them taking their land and lives. The ongoing propaganda declared this daily. Didn't happen did it?
The Palestinians face a situation not unlike the Blacks of the segregationist South.
The demonization of the Palestinians is much like the character assassination of MLK by J E Hoover.
[Hoover was one of the vilest pigs in the history of the US]
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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"My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszów. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."
 Gerald Kaufman, British Labour MP (YouTube link)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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DaftRat that as you know is a lousy example particularly as you have no idea what country you are talking about. Or for that matter what you are talking about at all.
I will NEVER give up Jeff as I have Truth and Justice on my side.
You however should concede now and save your self the pain of inevitable exposure as a fraud. Your arguments are tired and hackneyed and FALSE.
Still I would likely enjoy a glass of good wine and a chat.
So when do you want to book our sojourn to the ME?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 20, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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"Are you kidding GC? The minority white South Africans were terrified that the Black majority would swarm over them taking their land and lives."
There must have been many hardliners who wanted to keep apartheid and believed that the black majority would (as you put it) "swarm over them taking their land and lives." But a majority of whites--the whites in control of the country--did not believe this. That is why they were willing to transfer power to Mandela.
Compare Mandela's positions at the time to those of the Hamas leadership. The Palestinians have a lot to learn from Mandela and the South Africans. (The Israelis too.)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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The Apartheid state branded Mandella a terrorist and jailed him for decades. He was beaten, tortured and threatened with death daily. His compassion for peace was greater than his hate and animosity.
South Africa changed their stripes ONLY because the world wide divestment shook their economy and future to the ground.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Another bath tub bubble. Dude your full of beans.
Will you ever drop the dogma and rhetoric and address my points directly?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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fattrad,
The African state you're thinking of is Zimbabwe (then Rhodesia).
John
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
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"I know that there are people who want to see all of the Israelis completely annihilated, but I didn't realize that there were people who desired this so much that they pray every day for a nuclear war to make it happen. "
graniteclimber,
You have your head up your a*# just like Jeff!
This is exactly what Jeff wants for the Palestinians, the Iranians, the Saudis, and and all Arabs or anyone who believes in Islam - he just does not have the balls to say it straight out due to his "political ambitions" and associations.
All the posts he has made, if you want to go back and get up to speed, all conjoin to make this statement.
All I do is just mirror Jeff and his ilk from the other side of things.
(If you have not figured this out by now, WHEW!!!)
And yes it is very provocative.
If you want to condemn me, you had better be condemning Jeff and his ilk at the same time otherwise you are truly f*#ked up - just as much as Hammas, Ahmedinejad,Al Quaeda, the current Israeli government and Jeff!
Otherwise you are upholding the double standard that has mired the US in a world view that is not favorable to the everyday human being and has rendered the US impotent when it comes to foreign policy that can actually have a positive effect.
Please prove me wrong on this, about you!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
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Just as Christianity was a reform of Judaism? And Islam a reform of both Christianity and Judaism?
It might be very hard to assess whether the 'reformed' Christian brands (e.g. Protestantism) are different let alone better in attitude toward Judaism than Roman Catholics.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 21, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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"All I do is just mirror Jeff and his ilk from the other side of things."
No, you make Fattrad sound moderate and reasonable.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jan 21, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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How are Israelis Nazis again?
1200
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 04:29am PT
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Last update - 07:37 21/01/2009
Israeli human rights activists: Arrest Olmert, Livni, and Barak for war crimes
By Ofri Ilani
Tags: Ehud Barak, Hamas, Gaza
Anonymous self-described Israeli human rights activists have set up an Internet site detailing alleged war crimes committed by senior government officials and Israel Defense Forces officers. No known human rights organization is behind the site, whose founders refuse to give their names.
The site, www.wanted.org.il, includes "arrest orders," complete with pictures and personal details, for Defense Minister Ehud Barak, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai, Public Security Minister Avi Dichter, National Infrastructure Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi and his two predecessors, Dan Halutz and Moshe Ya'alon, former air force commander Eliezer Shkedy and others. It also explains how to inform the International Criminal Court in The Hague of when the "suspects" are outside Israel, and hence vulnerable to arrest.
The "arrest order" for Barak, for instance, states: "On December 27, 2008, the suspect ordered an aerial assault on all of Gaza's population centers. The assault included hundreds of sorties by fighter jets that dropped hundreds of tons of bombs on residential areas of Gaza, which led to the deaths of 1,200 people - men, women and children. Some 5,300 people were wounded and hundreds of thousands became refugees. On December 10, 2008, a formal complaint was filed against Ehud Barak to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Holland ... on suspicion of war crimes and crimes against humanity because of the siege of Gaza."
Israel accused of war crimes
Israel insists all weapons used complied with international law [GALLO/GETTY]
Human rights group Amnesty International has accused Israel of war crimes, saying its use of white phosphorus munitions in densely populated areas of the Gaza Strip was indiscriminate and illegal.
The accusations from the London-based organisation came as the scale of the destruction caused by the Israeli assault on the Palestinian territory overwhelmed Gazans.
Amnesty is not the first group to accuse Israel of using white phosphorus.
Human Rights Watch made the accusation on January 10 and the UN has also said Israel used the munition during its offensive in Gaza.
Donatella Rovera, a researcher with Amnesty, said: "Such extensive use of this weapon in Gaza's densely populated residential neighbourhoods is inherently indiscriminate."
"Its repeated use in this manner, despite evidence of its indiscriminate effects and its toll on civilians, is a war crime," she said.
Ample evidence
The use of white phosphorus is not prohibited under international law, but the indiscriminate use of any weapon in an area crowded with civilians could be used as the basis to make war crimes charges, legal experts have said.
In video
Unearthing Gaza's destruction
Israel's scorched earth tactics Israel said last week that all weapons used during its three-week campaign in Gaza complied with international law, but said it would carry out an internal investigation following Amnesty's accusations.
"In response to the claims ... relating to the use of phosphorus weapons, and in order to remove any ambiguity, an investigative team has been established in southern command to look into the issue," the Israeli army said.
Amnesty's accusations are made on the basis of an on-the-ground study by Chris Cobb-Smith, a British weapons expert who visited Gaza as part of a four-person Amnesty team following the start of a ceasefire on Sunday.
Cobb-Smith said he had found widespread evidence of the use of the incendiary material.
"We saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still-burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army," he said in a statement.
"White phosphorus is a weapon intended to provide a smokescreen for troop movements on the battlefield. It is highly incendiary, air burst and its spread effect is such that it should never be used on civilian areas."
'War crimes'
When white phosphorous lands on skin it burns through muscle and into the bone, continuing to burn unless deprived of oxygen.
Amnesty said that one of the places worst-affected by the use of white phosphorous munitions was the UN Relief and Works Agency compound in Gaza, which Israel shelled on January 15.
In another incident on the same day, a white phosphorus shell landed in the al-Quds hospital in Gaza City, causing a fire and forcing hospital staff to evacuate patients.
At the time, the UN had accused Israel of using white phosphorus, but the Israeli army refused to comment.
Israel faces potential claims in international courts for its actions in Gaza, where it launched an offensive against Hamas on December 27 with the stated aim of stopping the Palestinian group from firing rockets into Israel.
Tzipi Livni, Israel's foreign minister, said on Monday that she was "at peace" with the actions Israel had taken during the conflict
Of Course Livni is "at peace" with the Israeli actions she is the daughter of the royalty of Israeli terrorists.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:31am PT
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I guess I'll make a contribution to Philo's little cut and paste fest.
"Humiliated Hamas Lashes Out
January 21, 2009: Hamas thought they were invulnerable to Israeli attack. By placing so many of their military and government facilities in densely populated residential neighborhoods, they believed any Israeli bombing or shelling would cause high, and politically unacceptable, civilian losses. But the Israelis used surprise, more precision than expected, and innovations like calling civilians in the target area and telling them to get out before the bombs hit nearby. As a result, most of the 1,300 Palestinian dead were Hamas personnel, and nearly all the damaged structures were those used by Hamas. The Palestinians cranked up the spin machine anyway, and accused the Israelis of war crimes and genocide. But Israel responded with a media campaign featuring aerial videos of Hamas fighters setting up mortars and rockets next to schools and residential neighborhoods. This didn't stop the usual alliance of leftists, anti-Semites and Islamic radicals from calling Israel names. But the mud didn't stick nearly as much as in the past. It's as if the Israeli campaign was seeking to humiliate and discredit Hamas, as much as it was to destroy military and government assets.
Dozens of senior Hamas officials were killed by smart bomb attacks. The families of these Hamas leaders often died as well. Israel ignored Hamas attempts to protect its leaders by surrounding them with women and children in residential areas. What dismayed Hamas the most was Israel finding the location of their officials. Even before the ceasefire took effect on the 18th, Hamas death squads were rounding up the usual suspected (members of rival Fatah, and anyone else unlucky enough to be suspect) for torture and execution. The UN did not pay much attention to this, as it has been going on for over two years in Gaza. In that time, over 400 Fatah members have been killed by Hamas death squads, and many more Fatah (and any other Hamas rivals) tortured, wounded or jailed. Hamas apparently didn't realize that there were other ways to get target locations, besides informants on the ground. But all they understood was informants, so Hamas went after informants, and Hamas felt better after. But the bombings continued.
Israel believes it has destroyed 60 percent of the 200 or so smuggling tunnels that bring weapons (particularly long range rockets for attacks on Israeli civilians) into Gaza. Israel wants Israeli or American sensors and technicians prowling the Egyptian border to detect all the tunnels, and for Egyptian border guards to destroy them. Hamas opposes this (as do many Egyptian officials, especially the ones who benefit from the bribes of the tunnel operators). Negotiations continue.
Ultimately, Hamas found that hiding their senior leadership in hospitals or orphanages offered the best protection from Israeli attack. Weapons and key items of military equipment could also be stored there. Hamas apparently exercised some restraint, in to what degree they took over these institutions for military purposes. Someone in Hamas began doing the math, and realized that, at a certain point, a hospital full of weapons and Hamas personnel stopped being a hospital to Israeli commanders, and became a prime target.
Israel believes that Hamas had about 3,000 rockets in late December, and that during the 22 day campaign, about 700 of those rockets were fired in the general direction of Israel, while Israeli air (mostly) and ground forces destroyed another 1,300. That leaves Hamas with about 1,000 rockets, and dozens of functioning smuggling tunnels to Egypt through which components for replacement rockets can be moved.
Hamas claimed that Israeli bombs and troops did $1.9 billion worth of damage. It was probably closer to a few hundred million dollars. There were only about a thousand smart bombs used, and many of these were small ones (like the new U.S. 250 pound SDB, which Israel recently received). Hamas claimed that 5,000 homes were destroyed (and 20,000 damaged), along with 16 government buildings and 20 mosques. There are about 147,000 buildings in Gaza. Israel may take another media shot at Hamas by releasing photos of what was actually destroyed, and let Hamas try to dance away from their lies. But that may not be necessary, as Hamas is already the growing target for ridicule in the Arab world. If Israel was trying to get Hamas exposed as a bunch of tyrants, genocidal liars and blowhards, they seem to have succeeded,"
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