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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
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Thank you blue, that was a very interesting video on Everest's northern side. Life there is so much harder than on the moister southside of the Himalayas. I was also glad to see that the Tibetan explained that the mountain's goddess Miyolangsama was one of five long life goddesses and not the "mother goddess of the earth" which has been created by western mountaineers. Who said the idea of God/gods is dead in the West?
As for the wrathful emanation of Guru Rinpoche, hard to imagine from that beastly looking model that he was an actual historical human being.One set of myths attached to him is that he created the lush green valleys of the high Himalayas on the southside where the Sherpas live - the origin of the Shangri La myth. If a person is interested in myth, symbolism,or artistic manefestations of the unconscious, there is no better place to engage such interest than India and Tibet.
And finally, thanks to PhilG I just spent an hour checking out references in the BBC article he recommends, books with interesting titles like Born Believers and Why Religion is Natural and Science is Not.They will at least show fructose what he's up against using scientific explanations of why.
Some quotes:
“Science is cognitively unnatural – it’s difficult,” McCauley says. “Religion, on the other hand, is mostly something we don’t even have to learn because we already know it.”
“You’d have to fundamentally change something about our humanity to get rid of religion.”
“People seem to have this conceptual space for religious thought, which – if it’s not filled by religion – bubbles up in surprising ways.”
“In Scandinavia, most people say they don’t believe in God, but paranormal and superstitious beliefs tend to be higher than you’d think,”......" non-believers often lean on what could be interpreted as religious proxies – sports teams, yoga, professional institutions, Mother Nature and more – to guide their values in life. As a testament to this, witchcraft is gaining popularity in the US, and paganism seems to be the fastest growing religion in the UK.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
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Everything we are is 'natural' - in the sense that everything we are evolved. That includes the machinery necessary for both faith and science, and every other aspect of who we are.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
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Now if Christianity or Islam were based on the theology/theism of Eywa instead of the theology/theism of Jehovah I wouldn't have such a 21st century problem with it.
.....
They will at least show fructose what he's up against using scientific explanations of why
Yeah, as if I needed still more, lol!
.....
“You’d have to fundamentally change something about our humanity to get rid of religion.”
“You’d have to fundamentally change something about our humanity to get rid of science illiteracy.”
“You’d have to fundamentally change something about our humanity to get rid of slavery.”
“You’d have to fundamentally change something about our humanity to get rid of racism.”
and on and on...
Are you anti-science, anti-innovation people even aware how retro you can sound in some of these posts?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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The question is what to replace Jehovah with then, if evolution has given us a brain for religion.
Cognitive science is now saying what I have been saying all along - that most people can't replace something with nothing which is the problem with atheism.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
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The further we step away from ourselves and our subjectivity, the more good and bad fades into nothing.
I can only assume you "step away from (yourself)" through meditation. Really, you step away from yourself and through this stepping away are enlightened with regard to the nature of good and evil?
You could be off to the monastery with that attitude!
If we go, all our subjective value judgements - good or bad, pretty or ugly, go with us.
Socrates, and yes I realize he was a buffoon, would beg to differ on that account. Again, I would point you to the dialogue with Protagoras.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
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if evolution has given us a brain for religion.
This is the error. Plain as day. Evolution most definitely did NOT give us a brain for religion, it gave us a brain for X and Y and Z which in primitive times made our ancestors susceptible to religion and its, shall we say, larger-than-life (inspiring) promises. So early proto-religious concepts and practices filled the vacuum and institutionalized versions followed (ironically as a csq of what? evolutionary pressures).
Times are changing, however. It's most definitely an age of change, an era of transition. Only mental trogs don't perceive it - and yes, of course, even re religions and theisms. Where once upon a time, a beast of burden ruled in transport, today planes trains and automobiles do. And on and on...
It helps if you know the subjects really well and are already a fan of evolution, innovation and higher civilization. They are a big help here, not only in seeing with the mind's eye potentional future dvts in belief systems but in seeing through the mediocrity, with which (obviously) present populations are ridden.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
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Since your biking companions have told you all is void at the bottom of things you have become very attached to the idea - whether it is true or not.
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I practice non-attachment - not perfectly, but that is the practice, John. I did not "become attached" to the void because of my friends, but rather because that is what transpires when you get quite and go exploring. The void, or more accurately, no-thingness, is what everyone encounters who stays with the practice long enough. You continually surmise that this "no-thingness" is in fact an "idea" that might or might not be true, meaning you are still viewing all of this from the perspective of the discursive mind. The only relevance my friend's "void" has to me is that it is interesting to see that in some way, science and the experiential adventures end up at the same no-thing place - or non-place, as it were. My sense is that you still remain attached to the Newtonian idea that the stuff is real and that the void is "imagined," or worked up for the sake of making measurements or quantitative models. I think this might be your sticking point on all this.
And you are equating your no-thingness epiphany to the physicists' conjecture.
No-thingness is not an epiphany that the mind suddenly "gets," as though it were the "right' answer to a question. That's not how it works in my experience. And there are more than a few physicists out there - especially the young and hungry ones - who would ask you flat out what part of "no physical extent" are you not getting, and where in the world did you ever get the idea that this was a conjecture. My question is - what are you really resisting here? What are you defending so ardently? What do you so adamantly think is no inherently incorrect about all of this?
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You are indeed looking at the woods and not at the differing trees therein, and this may be an exciting revelation in your metaphysical journey, but in the larger scheme of things you are indulging in wishful thinking. We all do at times.
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Again, are the "woods" a thing that I am looking at? Is that your take on all of this, John. If so, why not try a simple thought experiment to find out for yourself?
I have repeatedly said that no human mind can hold things and non-things in the same focus. Anymore than you can climb in two directions at once. You are married to the belief that I am "looking at' or focusing on a thing called the "forest." I challenge you to go to a forest, or any expanse of trees, hold an open focus, which does not preclude anything in awareness, from sounds to feelings to thoughts to the jet overhead, and tell me how this exercise renders even a modicum of "wishful thinking," insofar as you are not thinking (narrow focusing," but rather are simply being present to and radically open to what is actually there.
Wishful thinking and beliefs have no part in the open focus game whatsoever. The whole game is to get present - and go from there.
JL
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
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Nah. Religion can be unlearned, or, more accurately, discarded for more likely hypotheses. I'm living proof. So is my entire family. So is nearly the entire country of Japan. Among others.
We have the evolved machinery for religion - but it likely evolved to handle more immediate survival functions - like creating and maintaining robust social schemas. Once the machinery was there for that - it was repurposed over time - pretty standard evolutionary process.
Regarding the machinery science - the 'less natural' thesis presented is silly, considering many species have the capacity for creating complex social schema and for doing science - experimentation, tool use, scientific learning, etc.
The human population varies individual by individual with regards to being 'faith versus science' driven. No surprise - we evolved with the capacity for both.
We needn't imagine a society without religion - there are plenty of examples today of just that. What happens to all that 'unused myth neural circuitry'??? Considering that said circuitry can be used for all kinds of things - and that it probably didn't evolve initially to give birth to religion (that was likely a repurposing), that capacity simply gets used for other creative endeavors.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
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Given all the problems in the world, I think we have to prioritize. So to the issues fructose raises, the real question is, which is worse, religion, scientific illiteracy, slavery or racism?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
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As for Japan,they still have religion, they just don't perceive it that way, particularly when asked by a foreigner from the Abrahamic West. First they never had theistic religions, second they do still worship/ honor their ancestors and are obsessed with ghosts and ghost stories as is every other East Asian ancestor venerating society, and they have plenty of superstitions.
I know from polls that have been taken that the majority in Japan say they are not religious. The majority also say that they have visited a temple and prayed in the past year, and they all drive with temple safety charms in their cars. When asked about this seeming contradiction, they are surprised as they did not perceive visiting a temple or praying as religious (maybe the result of Christian missionaries among other things).
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
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"I think we have to prioritize. So to the issues..."
Look around. All the items in your list are all being worked through even as we post. It's a multichapter playbook steeped in multi-pronged strategies for doing just these things. It's Ovah for Jehovah. Abrahamic religion as our grandparents knew it (thanks in part to ISIS now) won't survive the century at least among the educated in the West. Anyone who thinks otherwise might not be following educated millenials enough or might be underestimating the powers of social media and international community awareness. Exciting times, here's to the innovators!
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
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PR said "Good or bad? What should we do when the tiger devours our loved one, cry out in agony, curse the beast, kill it or shout bon appetite! To demand absolute subjectivity, absolute relativism from concepts like good and bad is as foolish as demanding their absolute objectivity."
If by demanding you are meaning a ridgid holding then I think you are correct. a ridgid holding of anything is going to create problems for us becasue everything is constantly changing.
If you can't see and experience both the absolute POV and the objective POV then your POV is narrow and you lack wisdom.
Lack of wisdom usually equals more suffering .
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
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I don't disagree that Jehovah is on the way out and that in retrospect, the Islamic fundamentalists will have had more to do with this than any scientifically reasoned argument. The question is what will replace that kind of god? If what the cognitive scientists are saying is true about being hard wired for religion, I don't think that the majority will ever be without it in some form.
Evolutionary survival depends on diversity, pepper moth example and all that. So it's good to have secular atheists, just in case. I just don't think you guys will ever prevail - you're so special. :)
And as the BBC article points out, people quickly revert to religion during times of trouble. One example given was the increase in religiosity among those secular New Zealanders surviving the big earthquake there.So looking ahead to 9 billion people, peak oil, etc. I doubt religion will disappear.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
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Socrates had a PhD?
"I can only assume you "step away from (yourself)" through meditation."
Nah. If that's your only assumption (always a buffoon's enterprise) you may need to get out more. I step into myself through meditation. The enjoyment of being and all that.
Not the Largo school, I realize - but the universal No Thing Thing that lies under it all is just another myth as far as I'm concerned. Oh, I know he fully believes it defines reality - just as Blue is absolutely certain he'll live forever. But certainty isn't truth, is it? If it was, the air would be thick with angels n sh#t.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
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Regarding Japan...nope. Your information on Japan is very dated, Jan.
Shintoism is nearly dead there. An NYT article from 2001. Even so - 'veneration' is not 'worship'. That's a western notion slathered on an eastern one:http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/world/japan-has-little-time-for-its-old-time-religion.html
I've had family in Japan for 35 years - they concur with the country's near total indifference to religion of any kind as well.
It's hard for the 'spiritual', whatever that means, to imagine entire societies like this, but there you have it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
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Big if.
If what the cognitive scientists are saying is true about being hard wired for religion...
This "what the cognitive sists are saying" and "hard-wired for religion" are simply not true.
To the degree you "believe" it is so, may I suggest you might be reading the wrong blogs or whatever.
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whatever "religion" means as well... these days.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
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Yeah, 'hard wired for all kinds of creative fictional schemas - of which religion is just one out of an infinity of possibilities' would be just a wee bit more credible and accurate.
'Science' with an obvious agenda isn't science at all. Sorry. No cigar. Not even a stuffy toy.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
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Evolutionary survival depends on diversity, pepper moth example and all that. So it's good to have secular atheists, just in case. I just don't think you guys will ever prevail - you're so special. :)
"Prevail"? What does this mean? What do you think the ambition is over on the secular progressive or "New Atheist" side?
This is where you seem to err perception-wise time and again.
If you're under the bogus view or mindset of a WB or Dingy that we're trying to convert everyone even a majority to atheism you couldn't be more wrong.
That you persist on and on in this view, via posting, despite assertions time and again to the contrary, is weird.
No "preacherman" here proselytizing-wise. I have absolute zero interest to convert blu or go-b or klimmer or anyone else to anything. It's believer's choice. Sure, I would advocate, and do advocate, for science education, where it's appropriate, but I would hope you see that as something different.
My interest is the same as it's always been, as I've described many times before: the dvt of an arts and sciences based belief system (tbd) for arts and "science types" apart from traditional forms of belief - all on a basis of science and The Scientific Story (in the spirit of Carl Sagan, say). We have enough modern understanding nowadays, whether integral to science or not, to do this, to get this done; in fact it IS being done, it just takes the innovation and effort. (Rome wasn't built in a day.) Last but not least, if this arts-and-sciences-based belief system appeals to only a minority or super-minority, then that's fine. Esp in its pioneering stage. No social mvt ever matured overnight. We are patient.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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Given that faith based beliefs thrive best in environments where information can be limited, I have to wonder about the prospects for same in a world where information is becoming a) completely liquid and b) the standard of living around the world is rapidly increasing - and with it access to information.
I also believe that empathy towards others, particularly those not like us, has been on the steady rise since the birth of civilization (in fits and starts, of course). Theistic religions are too often the clear enemy of such empathy today - so I'm not sure they'll survive the 'empathy revolution' that seems to be in full swing - thanks, in part, to the fluidity of information.
On the flip side - the oft postulated 'necessity of religion for empathy' has been proven patently untrue in irreligious yet compassionate societies all over the world.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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. It's Ovah for Jehovah. Abrahamic religion (thanks in part to ISIS) won't survive the century at least among the eduated in the West. Anyone who thinks otherwise might not be following educated millenials enough or might be underestimating the powers of social media and international community awareness. Exciting times!
Being a student of history I have never been convinced that the wholesale diminution of Abrahamic religions, even if such a thing were remotely possible, would be a cure for all that ails us in Western societies . The 20th century saw the herding of most of mankind into a couple of totalitarian states, founded and nurtured by nominal atheists, which effectively outlawed these religions---and yet these societies were hardly beacons of enlightenment and wondrous things for freedom-loving folks intent on founding or perpetuating a shining technocracy. In fact, the reverse was true. The situation opened up new ponerological possibilities for amoral psychopaths at the reins of power within these societies.
Atheists intent on placing science and its chosen political adjuncts as a working replacement for religion , must address the historical record of official atheism. We all know that Abrahamic theocracies are a bad idea. We never hear that official Atheism is a similar , or even worse idea. And yet we have this glaring historical record.
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