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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
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Oct 21, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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In another thread you say the US prints too much money...now you say we are mimicking Japan.
Except we are not.
I say a lot of things, and some of them actually make sense.
We do print too much money. But what I am referring to here is not money printing, or eating sushi, it is BAILOUTS and Government picking the winners, not allowing the markets to decide where to allocate resources.
Both the U.S. and Japan should have let failing businesses fail. Like I say, it would have been more painful initially, but at least we would have a chance at a real recovery as capital is reallocated in a way more conducive to real growth.
Is deflation bad or good? Stability is better than either, but after a large run up in inflation you have to have deflation in order to allow prices to come down to where consumers can buy. It is also important to trim inefficient and bloated business models that grew unimpeded during the inflationary regime.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
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Oct 21, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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The Fed has failed in getting the money supply into the economy because banks are unable to make loans, we may have more deflation ahead.
I am still in the inflation camp though. I think we will follow all the other countries like Zimbabwe, Argentina, Russia, etc. that have debt and unfunded liabilities way beyond their ability to pay back - we will try to print our way out of debt. I just don't see any other way. The Government is the entity with the most debt and unfunded liabilities, and they are the ones controlling the printing press.
It is complicated though, and for one thing, we have already had (and still have) inflation - it has been sector based though, in stocks, real estate, health care, education, etc. although it is fairly significant in food and energy since QE2 began. I think the Government likes to scare us about deflation because they benefit from inflation.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Oct 21, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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"Ah, no tea baggers then! Probably no guns being brandished either."
nope. and no rape, sexual harrassment, anti-semitism, theft, destruction of public and private property, public defecation, communist supporters, or nazi supporters, either
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 21, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
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It seems like where the rubber hits the road with the tea party people and ows--when you ignore gun nuts and sidewalk poopers--is dissatisfaction with congress and its capitulation to large financial institutions at the expense of everyday tax paying citizens. I don't see how either group is wrong in that regard.
I don't see a real difference betweeen the two.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Oct 21, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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rape: http://www.drudge.com/news/149493/protester-raped-occupy-cleveland
sexual harrassment: http://www.verumserum.com/?p=30928
theft: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/criminal_occupation_oh3CnKANUqYHrGPCaZaLRK
anti-semitism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFFlQEN0SvY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEf7gGNFDfg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Y9CARUwio&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjm4LxFa1c&feature=grec_index
vandalism" http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/local/story/Police-car-vandalized-near-Occupy-Portland/M4kmAI26-kmYJKbQfE4v0Q.cspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grRNmgMRcP8
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/vandal-hits-occupy-philly-protests-101411
communists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avG4LgTF0ho
and, finally, from the nazis:
The foremost authority on National Socialism in America has this to say about “Occupy” [ANP leader Rocky Suhayda -ed.] :
What is really MISSING – is the “MOVEMENT” from these popular protests – its time to pull WN heads out of their collective ass’s, and JOIN IN the attack on Judeo-Capitalism. What do you suggest? That WN Working Class White people DEFEND the Judeo-Capitalists? IF the “movement” wasn’t so PATHETIC it would be OUT THERE – LEADING these protests! The fact that its these “lefties” as you call them, who are picking up the ball and running with it – only shows how much more in tune THEY are with the fed up masses of White Workers, than the fossilized, reactionary “right-wing”. WHO holds the WEALTH and POWER in this country – the JUDEO-CAPITALISTS. WHO is therefore the #1 ENEMY who makes all this filth happen – the JUDEO-CAPITALISTS. WHO therefore do WN need to FIGHT? My heart is right there with these people, perhaps someday the “movement” will SHOW the same COURAGE and DEDICATION that these people OUT THERE FIGHTING are SHOWING!
Sincerely, ROCKY SUHAYDA Hail Victory! 88!
you're right, f, ows is truly pathetic
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Gary
climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
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Oct 21, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
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You guys will never understand Crack Addict's and the other Repugnican apologists' flip-flops until you understand this:
The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies - all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Oct 21, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
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oops, my bad, f, i forgot you libs consider everything "free speech"...like flag burning, rape, theft, sexual harrassment, public defecation...i bet those folks are happy to have you defending their rights...i'm also sure you're eager to have them over for lattes and drumming around the cacti
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 21, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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bookworm,
You're almost right. Libs consider anything not spoken by those with conservative views free speech. Those things spoken by those with conservative views they consider a clear and present danger, and try to suppress.
john
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2011 - 02:58pm PT
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Libs consider anything not spoken by those with conservative views free speech. Those things spoken by those with conservative views they consider a clear and present danger, and try to suppress.
I would have expected more from you John. sigh...
The failings of some libs are EXACTLY the same as some conservatives. Unable to truly understand what the other side wants. Portraying all on the other side as extremists. Proclaiming to know what the other side wants instead of saying what they want. And yes some Libs AND conservatives BOTH think free speech ends where THEY want it to. If you think OWS don't have the right to say what they want OR you think the Tea Partiers don't have the right to say what they want, then your head is up your a*# and you don't truly understand freedom.
Here's a perfect example:
i forgot you libs consider everything "free speech"...like flag burning, rape, theft, sexual harrassment, public defecation.
What an idiot. Throwing flag burning in there just shows he dosen't understand free speech and does want to limit other people's free speech. If I caught someone burning a US flag in America in protest I would probably pull it away from them and put it out. But I would defend their right to do it without the government interfering.
That reminds me of a boy scout camp we recently went to and at the flag burning (retirement) ceremony some moron right wingers got all upset. You can't fix stupid.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 21, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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The Fet,
I'll accept your criticism, but I was making a bit of a dig. At least a few times a month I get skewered here for my support of the Citizens United decision. I just find it odd that those who tend to find all sorts of non-verbal, and often non-political, expression to constitute protected speech are so anxious to restrict political communication.
John
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Oct 21, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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The Tarp money, that President Bush and Paulson pushed through congress to save the banks that self-destructed during the Bush presidency has largely been recovered by the Obama administration, some of it even at a profit.
Sounds like you want it both ways.
Bush saved the banks (who were encouraged to take bad home-loans) from further killing this country, and Obama gets credit for recovering the money? Is that what you're saying?
I've never criticized Bush/Pauslon/congress for passing Tarp and doing what it took to save the eocnomy. I do criticize people that call it Obama's bailout.
I also criticize the deregulation of the Banking sector. Democrats jumped on the bandwagon but thinking the solution to everything is to deregulate is a Republican agenda (and the current Republicans are still crying that we need to deregulate Wall Street despite that the 2008 crisis was only two election cycles ago) and Reagan was/is the poster child leading that vanguard.
I absolutely criticize the fact that tax payers got a raw deal. For the amount of money that tax payers put at risk, they should have gotten a much bigger slice when things recovered. Most of the Tarp money that went to big banks was done under Bush/Paulson. They gave us a raw deal notwithstanding the fact that most of it was paid back.
And while it would be nice if people actually gave Obama credit for recovering the money, there are enough people out there telling out right lies (I include your original post in that) such that most Americans believe (erroneously) that it has not and never will be paid back.
Peace is War.
This rewriting history would make Orwell/Big Brother proud. Tarp was passed under Obama. Saddam Hussein was behind 911. Government forcing loans to low income people caused the Housing crises. Stimulus was tried and didn't work (change in total government spending, Fed + State + local, during the "stimulus" was actually flat as the increase in Fed spending did no more than offset the cuts at the state and local level), it goes on and on.
Peace
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
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I finally watched this video posted before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI_P3pxze5w
So true. Get the money/corruption out of politics. That should be the unified message of OWS.
It's tough because you need to protect free speech, but when politicians can't make decisions in the best interest of the country because they are beholden to the people who give them enough money to get elected we have a problem. And it's not just the right, the unions have too much power too because of this.
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Gary
climber
From the City That Dreams
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Oct 21, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
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And it's not just the right, the unions have too much power too because of this.
Please, if the unions exert so much power in the political process, exactly what significant gain has labor made in the last 40 year?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 21, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
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Some of the strongest unions are the prison, police, firefighters and other emergency services - not noted as bastions of liberality. Although the percentage of US workers who are unionized, especially those outside the public sector, has dropped dramatically over the last 40 years.
Most of the right-wing anti-union rhetoric is simply an application of their anti-government ranting.
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Oct 21, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
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cor·po·ra·tion
[kawr-puh-rey-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
an association of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence independent of the existences of its members, and powers and liabilities distinct from those of its members.
2.
(initial capital letter) the group of principal officials of a borough or other municipal division in England.
3.
any group of persons united or regarded as united in one body.
4.
Informal. a paunch; potbelly.
Dr.F
Did you let Websters know you changed the meaning of corporation.
Edit:
"created by law or under authority of law"
Corporations will do what the government allows them to do. They don't make the rules, government does.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 21, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
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Gary,
Labor has made enormous gains in the last 40 years protecting public employee union members from the rapacious taxpayers and other members of the public that nominally employ them.
Dr. F.,
Neither unions, nor corporations, nor the Access Fund, nor any other non-individual is a "natural person" (to use the law's definition), but rather a group of people organized to undertake activities in concert. The "corporations aren't people" argument fails to account for people acting in concert. The guarantee of free speech cannot be limited to exclude all group actions or else it becomes, essentially, meaningless except for those individuals who possess the enormous financial means necessary to reach large numbers of people. I assume you don't want to limit meaningful political advocacy to "the rich."
The Fet,
My reply to Gary illustrates the real problem, because it isn't just public employee unions that feed at the taxpayers' expense. Far too many businesses and individuals get subsidies, handouts and bailouts in amounts that should stagger and outrage all of us -- even the otherwise Delphic OWS crowd.
As long as dealing with the government is a way to get money outside the marketplace, money will find a way to influence political outcomes. The rather crude and overbroad means we've been able to devise so far to try to stem the tide are about as effective as a child's low-tide sea wall would be in keeping the rising tide away, and about as dangerous to free speech as hunting flies with H-bombs would be for public safety.
John
John
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 21, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
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The DIFFERENCE, is that a corporation exists for one reason, to enrich the shareholders.
Therefore, according a corporation "person" status allows a for maximum profit entity the ability to use unlimited amounts of corporate cash to influence political legislation favorably for that corporation's gain.
An individual person, on the other hand, makes decisions and votes accordingly for all kinds of reasons, of which personal financial gain is only ONE "desire".
As stated, the goals of corporations and individuals are not "equal".
Individual People do NOT have huge amounts of cash to influence legislations and elections, but corporations have, in theory, unlimited resources to do likewise.
Citizens United, by straight 5-4 ideological vote, has altered the future of politics.
PROFIT motive now is clearly defined as acceptable.
---
Oh, and let's quit this union crap, union members account for only some 7% of the workforce, and that number is steadily shrinking.
They can extract only so much in dues to use for political purposes, a FAR cry from the corporate cash available.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 21, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
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Norton,
Citizens United involved a non-profit corporation. The four "liberal" justices voted to restrict the political speech of non-profits, which was the issue presented in the case.
Plenty of corporations are not for profit. Almost every charitable institution is run as a not-for-profit corporation. Plenty of corporations that don't claim a 501(c)(3) exemption (making contributions tax deductible), such as the Sierra Club, are still not for-profit entities.
The dissenters in Citizens United didn't distinguish between for-profit and not-for-profit entities; the facts wouldn't let them.
As for unions, public employee unions in California account for a very great deal of California public expenditures, as I'm sure you know. They also provide a very great deal of Democratic Party campaign cash, as I'm sure you also know. Don't pretend they're different from a corporation that wants to feed at the public trough. Both want our money in amounts greater than we would otherwise think prudent.
John
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Gary
climber
From the City That Dreams
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Oct 21, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
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Labor has made enormous gains in the last 40 years protecting public employee union members from the rapacious taxpayers and other members of the public that nominally employ them.
They have so much power in California that they took a 15% pay cut for three years, and even now are taking a 5% pay cut. Meanwhile highway work, for example, is being contracted out in no bid design-build contracts to politically powerless private sector companies. Contracts which have no top end.
You'll have to do better than that, John.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 21, 2011 - 06:35pm PT
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Turn on the Heat Ray, turn them to french fries.
That would be cruel and unusual punishment, even for commie Democrats. The Supreme Court may be dominated by extreme right-wingers, but they know there are some limits even on fascist fantasies. It has ruled that the Democrats have to be turned into freedom fries.
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