Bin Laden's Dead.

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shut up and pull

climber
May 6, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
PROGRESSIVISM WRIT LARGE:

The world is officially nuts. I’m not sure how else you classify what follows. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany recently remarked on the death of mass murderer Osama bin Laden saying was “glad” he’d been killed. That prompted the following from a German judge:

But Hamburg judge Heinz Uthmann went even further. He alleges that the chancellor’s statement was nothing short of illegal, and filed a criminal complaint against Merkel midweek, the daily Hamburger Morgenpost reported Friday.

“I am a law-abiding citizen and as a judge, sworn to justice and law,” the 54-year-old told the paper, adding that Merkel’s words were “tacky and undignified.”

In his two-page document, Uthmann, a judge for 21 years, cites section 140 of the German Criminal Code, which forbids the “rewarding and approving” of crimes. In this case, Merkel endorsed a “homicide,” Uthmann claimed. The violation is punishable by up to three years’ imprisonment or a fine.
“For the daughter of a Christian pastor, the comment is astonishing and at odds with the values of human dignity, charity and the rule of law,” Uthmann told the newspaper.

Of course the judge is assuming it’s a “homicide” (certainly no proof exists that’s the case) and thus a criminal act. In fact, the Geneva Conventions will clearly show otherwise. Obviously he files his complaint with nothing more than his opinion as a basis.

So you say, it’s one extremist view, why get excited about it?
While the judge’s reaction may seem extreme, his sentiments are apparently shared by 64 percent of the German population. That was the proportion of Germans who said bin Laden’s death was “no reason to rejoice” in a poll published by broadcaster ARD on Friday.

Germany – never a bastion of human rights or individual freedoms – continues to live up to its past with a new extremist but pacifist twist. This is an example of absurdity masquerading as reason, extremism as normalcy and stupidity as compassion.

Everyone who loves freedom and hates mass murderers should be “glad” Osama bin Laden has been killed. He was a monster, just like one which once ruled the land this puffed up pratt Uthman lives in. As much as Germans claim to have been “disgusted” with the “jubilation” over OBL’s death, nonsense like this does them no favor. The disgust on this side of the Atlantic for a country that assaults free speech and protects the memory of a mass murderer by going after those who express satisfaction at his demise isn’t one that I or most anyone here would ever care to live in.

From Bruce McQuain
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 6, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
Essentially you're saying we had the opportunity to start from scratch, right? Not bound by the 'old world'???
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 6, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
Gary - its not so weird when you realize that the GOP are blood sucking maggots bent on destroying America. Actually its all fairly clear then.

CC, fixed that misspelling for you. Have a good weekend, it really is a glorious Friday here.
shut up and pull

climber
May 6, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
THIS SHOULD DRIVE THE LIBS NUTS.

MAKES YA WONDER -- WHY WOULD LIBERALS BE AGAINST THIS KIND OF LAW?

Texas Passes Bill to Require Sonograms Before Abortions
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 6, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
Utilizing extensive documentation, the authors argue convincingly that the fear of immigrants and racial minorities has served as the most effective tactic in the GOP arsenal

What they fail to realize, Norton, is that is going to backfire on them soon.
shut up and pull

climber
May 6, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
I WONDER WHAT LIBERALS DON'T WANT EXPECTANT MOTHERS TO SEE BEFORE THE BUTCHER CUTS UP THE BABY IN UTERO?
shut up and pull

climber
May 6, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
AND OBAMA CONSTANTLY WANTS US TO BE MORE LIKE EUROPE.

“LEAVE IT TO PRIMITIVE AMERICANS to ruin a perfectly good kinetic military operation by taking too much enjoyment, too visibly, in its success. If you believe German political scientist Herfried Münkler, Europeans find the spectacle of ordinary Americans spontaneously celebrating the death of Osama bin Laden a ’somewhat embarrassing’ display of ‘unthinking naïveté.’”

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 6, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
Essentially you're saying we had the opportunity to start from scratch, right? Not bound by the 'old world'???

Yes, not beholden to or bound by any 'old world' wherever in the world the immigrants - then or now - came from. A hodge-podge of peoples who had to sort out a way to live together with people who were nothing like themselves.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 6, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
What you liberal fools probably realize is that the conservatives (nor Repubs), don't hate immigrants. They just don't 'love' them the way progressives do.

Conservatives feel that everybody coming here should have the same opportunities. Most will struggle at first, as happened in the past.

Progressives feel that immigrants should be treated special and given special opportunities, usually at the expense of established citizens.

Conservatives tend to encourage the strength of 'immigrant struggle', making people assimilate and join American culture.

Progressives tend to encourage reliance on gov't and non-assimilation.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
May 6, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
the founders were largely fundamentalist fanatics and many actively worked to overthrow the British crown and government.

Got a link that supports that? Maybe you are thinking of the puritans, which were a subset of the pilgrims.

The people who started the Plymouth colony, what I would think of as THE founders, were NOT trying to overthrow the British, they wanted freedom, which they had in Amsterdam, but didn't want to lose their identity.

And the reason where America is is becuase the ideas were often greater than the men. Once you let freedom and equality out of the bag it's just a matter of time until people realize that you can't apply artificial limits to either.

Bluering,
I don't know one progressive who believes the things you just said they believe. You are so duped by the right wing media it's funny.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 6, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
Conservatives feel that everybody coming here should have the same opportunities

Indeed, bluering, that's an historical fact. Conservatives have great regard for those different from themselves.

WBraun

climber
May 6, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
For the materialists there is no complete Freedom.

Only limited freedom.

You're still always somebody's bitch ......
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 6, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
categorically total bullsh#t


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 6, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
Al Qaeda has confirmed the death of bin Laden, in a statement posted to a number of websites where they usually put their announcements.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0507/1224296379787.html
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
May 6, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
healyje, like I said it depends on your defenition of "founder". One of my ancestors Roger Conant came over in 1623, thought the Plymouth colony was too strict and founder Salem and Beverly Mass. It's pretty hard not to see him a a founder of this nation, and in comparing him to OBL all I can say is that's f*#ked.
klk

Trad climber
cali
May 6, 2011 - 09:09pm PT
i believe healeyj is giving us a quick-and-dirty account of the pilgrims.

"the founders" usually refers to the much later revolutionary generation of the late 18th century that drafted the declaration. very few of them practiced a type of christianity that republicans could today could endorse. many (like jefferson and franklin) weren't even christians.

the confusion arises partly because of a radical revisionist account of us history that's become influential in recent years that argues that the us is not a constitutional republic but rather a christian nation. rather than a democracy built on a social contract between the citizens and the state, the us is a protestant feudal restoration founded on a covenant between americans and god.

this is, to say the least, historically inaccurate. but it's gotten amazing traction, and one of the by products has been the attempt to claim the frankly theocratic constitutions of the most puritan colonies as the true sources of american politics. so increasingly, you'll hear folks like cotton mather described as a "founder."

so hj is giving us a secular, left-of-center revision of language that's become popular on the far right. although i can't swear that was his intent.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
May 6, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
I think it's easy to look at the eruption of celebration that came upon hearing of OBL's death as inappropriate or naive, but I think that misses the core reasons of why people celebrated. OBL was the boogeyman. He was the specter of evil that could reach out from a secluded camp on the other side of the world and hurt Americans in a manner unlike anything we had imagined and then get away with it. It was not joy at another's death that caused people to celebrate, but the relief from that specter of fear. You can argue about the tangible difference in safety that his death may or may not make, but as a symbol he was all that we were afraid of and all that we were frustrated with about the so called "war on terror." And now he's dead and we found him and killed him. And that feels pretty damn good after 10 years of not really feeling all that great about how things were going and seeing little tangible evidence that what we were doing was having an impact.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
May 6, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
bluering said
Conservatives tend to encourage the strength of 'immigrant struggle', making people assimilate and join American culture.

Progressives tend to encourage reliance on gov't and non-assimilation.


From your posting I gather that bluerings rely on generalizations based on propaganda to reinforce worldviews that they wish to perpetuate.




*edit*


encourage the strength of 'immigrant struggle'

Translation: We treat them like sh#t and milk them for everything they're worth until they finally outbreed us and then we scream "class warfare" and about the threat to the American Way of Life.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
May 7, 2011 - 12:46am PT
THIS is why some of us are saying that bin Laden has been dead for years.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x312573

Fox News: "Bin Laden Already Dead"
Wednesday, December 26, 2001
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html

The Death of bin Ladenism
By AMIR TAHERI
Published: July 11, 2002
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405EFDE1230F932A25754C0A9649C8B63
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/11/opinion/the-death-of-bin-ladenism.html?src=pm

Benazir Bhutto named Osama bin Laden’s killer before her death
15.01.2008
http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/15-01-2008/103426-benazir_bhutto_osama-0/




GORDON DUFF: YEARS OF DECEIT: US OPENLY ACCEPTS BIN LADEN LONG DEAD
December 5, 2009 posted by Gordon Duff
BIN LADEN NEVER MENTIONED IN McCHRYSTAL REPORT OR OBAMA SPEECH - “HUNT FOR BIN LADEN” A NATIONAL SHAME
By Gordon Duff/STAFF WRITER/Senior Editor
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2009/12/05/years-of-deceit-us-openly-accepts-bin-laden-long-dead



Conservative commentator, former Marine Colonel Bob Pappas has been saying for years that bin Laden died at Tora Bora and that Senator Kerry’s claim that bin Laden escaped with Bush help was a lie. Now we know that Pappas was correct. The embarrassment of having Secretary of State Clinton talk about bin Laden in Pakistan was horrific. He has been dead since December 13, 2001 and now, finally, everyone, Obama, McChrystal, Cheney, everyone who isn’t nuts is finally saying what they have known for years.

However, since we lost a couple of hundred of our top special operations forces hunting for bin Laden after we knew he was dead, is someone going to answer for this with some jail time? Since we spent 200 million dollars on “special ops” looking for someone we knew was dead, who is going to jail for that? Since Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney continually talked about a man they knew was dead, now known to be for reasons of POLITICAL nature, who is going to jail for that? Why were tapes brought out, now known to be forged, as legitimate intelligence to sway the disputed 2004 election in the US? This is a criminal act if there ever was one.

In 66 pages, General Stanley McChrystal never mentions Osama bin Laden. Everything is “Mullah Omar”now. In his talk at West Point, President Obama never mentioned Osama bin Laden. Col. Pappas makes it clear, Vice President Cheney let it “out of the bag” long ago. Bin Laden was killed by American troops many many years ago.

America knew Osama bin Laden died December 13, 2001. After that, his use was hardly one to unite America but rather one to divide, scam and play games. With bin Laden gone, we could have started legitimate nation building in Afghanistan instead of the eternal insurgency that we invented ourselves.

Without our ill informed policies, we could have had a brought diplomatic solution in 2002 in Afghanistan, the one we are ignoring now, and spent money rebuilding the country, 5 cents on the dollar compared to what we are spending fighting a war against an enemy we ourselves recruited thru ignorance.

The bin Laden scam is one of the most shameful acts ever perpetrated against the American people. We don’t even know if he really was an enemy, certainly he was never the person that Bush and Cheney said. In fact, the Bush and bin Laden families were always close friends and had been for many years.

What kind of man was Osama bin Laden? This one time American ally against Russia, son of a wealthy Saudi family, went to Afghanistan to help them fight for their freedom. America saw him as a great hero then. Transcripts of the real bin Laden show him to be much more moderate than we claim, angry at Israel and the US government but showing no anger toward Americans and never making the kind of theats claimed. All of this is public record for any with the will to learn.

How much of America’s tragedy is tied with these two children of the rich, children of families long joined thru money and friendship, the Bush and bin Laden clans.

One son died in remote mountains, another lives in a Dallas suburb hoping nobody is sent after him. One is a combat veteran, one never took a strong stand unless done from safety and comfort. Islam once saw bin Laden as a great leader. Now he is mostly forgotten.

What has America decided about Bush?

We know this: Bin Laden always denied any ties to 9/11 and, in fact, has never been charged in relation to 9/11. He not only denied involvement, but had done so, while alive, 4 times and had vigorously condemned those who were involved in the attack.

This is on the public record, public in every free country except ours. We, instead, showed films made by paid actors, made up to look somewhat similar to bin Laden, actors who contradicted bin Ladens very public statements, actors pretending to be bin Laden long after bin Laden’s death.

These were done to help justify spending, repressive laws, torture and simple thievery.

For years, we attacked the government of Pakistan for not hunting down someone everyone knew was dead. Bin Laden’s death hit the newspapers in Pakistan on December 15, 2001. How do you think our ally felt when they were continually berated for failing to hunt down and turn over someone who didn’t exist?

What do you think this did for American credibility in Pakistan and thru the Islamic world? Were we seen as criminals, liars or simply fools? Which one is best?

This is also treason.

How does the death of bin Laden and the defeat and dismemberment of Al Qaeda impact the intelligence assessments, partially based on, not only bin Laden but Al Qaeda activity in Iraq that,not only never happened but was now known to have been unable to happen?

How many “Pentagon Pundits,” the retired officers who sold their honor to send us to war for what is now known to be domestic political dirty tricks and not national security are culpable in these crimes?

I don’t always agree with Col. Pappas on things. I believe his politics overrule his judgement at times. However, we totally agree on bin Laden, simply disagree with what it means. To me lying and sending men to their deaths based on lies is treason.

Falsifying military intelligence and spending billions on unnecessary military operations for political reasons is an abomination. Consider this, giving billions in contracts to GOP friends who fill campaign coffers, and doing so based on falsified intelligence is insane. This was done for years.

We spent 8 years chasing a dead man, spending billions, sending FBI agents, the CIA, Navy Seals, Marine Force Recon, Special Forces, many to their deaths, as part of a political campaign to justify running American into debt, enriching a pack of political cronies and war profiteers and to puff up a pack of Pentagon peacocks and their White house draft dodging bosses.

How many laws were pushed thru because of a dead man?

How many hundreds were tortured to find a dead man?

How many hundreds died looking for a dead man?

How many billions were spent looking for a dead man?

Every time Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld stood before troops and talked about hunting down the dead bin Laden, it was a dishonor. Lying to men and women who put their lives on the line is not a joke.

Who is going to answer to the families of those who died for the politics and profit tied to the Hunt for Bin Laden?





The Magnificent Afghanistan by Johnny Punish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-dGHwe6COM&feature=player_embedded




There she is Benazir Bhutto, before she was assassinated claiming OBL was murdered and is dead already . . .



Benazir Bhutto: Bin Laden was Murdered
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg&feature=related
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 7, 2011 - 12:52am PT
Strange how it is that al Qaeda should have only just now released a statement acknowledging bin Laden's recent death. Oh well, no doubt the usual conspirators will hasten to inform us that al Qaeda is just doing whatever the CIA tells it to do, to make it appear that bin Laden was alive until recently.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/06/osama-bin-laden-al-qaida
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