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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Oct 27, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
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I witnessed the devastation of the Saudis flooding the market, the 86' crash created conditions in the oil states every bit as bad as the great depression. If these utopians had their way the whole world would be plunged into a depression much worse than in 1930's. Their ineptitude in rolling out socialized medicine, one of the central fixtures of the socialist utopianism agenda, should be enough to convince any thinking person that we really can't afford big government dictating energy policy. Base is right, in the real world energy consumption and the fuel of choice follow costs. If the eco freaks want clean energy perhaps they should refrain from consuming public resources/monies in endless study of unrealistic scenarios of doom and instead concentrate on engineering tomorrows cost competitive clean energy.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 27, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
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"It is crucial that these criticisms not go unanswered."
Exactly why I am here.K-man
BASE,while one could truly ponder your thoughts,It is true FF"s are everywhere.
How did it become that way?
There was a starting point,just as alt's are facing today.
Alternatives must be introduced to our infrastructure,they are the key to future DEVELOPMENT.
They are not a pie in the sky.
It is proven that all of them are coming down in price,through better design,manufacturing and availability .
Not to deter your points of lessening consumption .Because you are exactly correct. Cheers.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 27, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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You know Rick, That Tea Party thing,you really ought to have that looked at.
It is all about you.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 27, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
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Yep,believe some guy from the UK,with invisible funding.
How many satellites does he have up there?
Do you have any References?
Is any of his work peer reviewed?
Just keep your answer.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Oct 27, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
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I absolutely agree that alternatives are better. However, if they cost more, nobody will use them.
I've lived in the bubble of oil and gas markets for my adult life. My conclusion is that our insatiable gullet for oil costs way more than just pump price. Why do you think we keep a couple of carrier groups in the Med and Gulf on the other side of the world? It is because those are going to be the last oil fields standing in another twenty or thirty years. We have already found all of the easy to find oil.
I will say this: There are several reasons why fossil fuels, and oil in particular are downright evil.
The quicker we get off of them the better. I was for the carbon tax under Clinton, but not the way he proposed it. He wanted to tax oil at the wellhead, where it is already taxed to death by the states (7.5% gross here). It needs to be taxed right at the pump. People simply will not conserve unless it actually hits their pocketbook.
Just look on a city freeway. People commute (alone) in a car for 40 miles to work every day. If we had made investments in light rail in all of the dense population centers, this would change things.
Some of it is simple: carpooling is easy to value. Some of it isn't. Such as getting fresh grapes in Feb. that were grown in Chile. On top of that you have manufacturing itself, although manufacturing jobs have fled the U.S. in my life.
So many lives go down the drain over oil. It isn't the actual oil most of the time, it is simply the price of it. We don't import much from the middle east, getting most of our oil from the Atlantic Basin, but the middle east is where the price is set because they are the only ones with any remaining excess production capacity. Every well in the U.S. produces flat out, and our finding costs are enourmous. The massive middle eastern fields have been producing for over fifty years and still have a ways to go. They don't have finding costs, only production costs of a few bucks per barrel.
I saw an interview with the Saudi Oil Minister last year that was really interesting. He said that if another energy source tried to displace oil use, they would dump oil onto the market to drive it out. None of the companies have this kind of muscle; to control price. Only the Saudis.
A lot of it is strictly about choices, though. There are three people in my house and we have three damn cars. I travel very little because I cyber commute, but it is still crazy. Even in high standard of living countries such as the Scandinavian countries can't believe that every person has their own car over here. They have one small one per family.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 27, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
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BASE ,I completely agree with you.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 27, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
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we really can't afford big government dictating energy policy
Too late, rick sumner. Too late by about 100 years.
Oil prices and policy, for better or worse, IS an example of world-wide government cooperation and interference in markets (socialism? I dunno?) in action.
There's no free market in energy/oil policy. Hasn't been since the US government broke up Standard Oil.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Oct 27, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
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Oh...what do we have....a skidmark down the undershorts of humanity? Titanium dingleberries and an overdeveloped sense of self importance?
That is called Hubris. It isn't fun to be around, and I've only seen a few cases this highly developed in my life.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 27, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
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Hubris Indeed!
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 27, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
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You could not fix a lunch ,dude.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 27, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
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do ya wear cotton, swabbie?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 27, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
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I know a psychiatrist at the VA. I can hook you up Sailor. PHD and all.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Oct 27, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 28, 2013 - 12:43am PT
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Yabadabadooo.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Oct 28, 2013 - 01:19am PT
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Good response Ed, no longer any pretense of fighting this on scientific grounds. Pocket book issues are understandable to just about all. Please tell us all how a carbon tax, added onto skyrocketing energy prices, along with ongoing inflation on all the staples of modern life, and now including distinctly increased healthcare costs for a majority of working peoples, will close the gap on this imagined deferred social cost of carbon. Particularly troubling is the huge estimates of costs for tiny reductions in temps. Look at Europe.
I see many of the rest of you are swimming in The Chiefs toilet again-just great.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Oct 28, 2013 - 09:55am PT
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Some of you guys watch too much Fox news or get your science from Limbaugh.
Go to the source. Even if you can't handle the math of a paper, you can usually understand the abstract.
This thread is pretty much dead. I will have a calm discussion with anyone, but a guy like the Chief ruins any discourse. I am going back to boycotting him. If he posts on a thread, I'm gone.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Oct 28, 2013 - 10:06am PT
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This thread is pretty much dead. I will have a calm discussion with anyone, but a guy like the Chief ruins any discourse. I am going back to boycotting him. If he posts on a thread, I'm gone.
Hate to lose you, your contributions are excellent. But yeah it's like trying to have a conversation while a crazy child screams for attention in the center of the room.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 28, 2013 - 10:17am PT
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BASE,While I agree with the above,I do understand your point.
Even though I cannot speak for all here,your contributions here are greatly appreciated.
Probably 6-10 times as much as you think.
Really like the opinion/reference from the E and P side of things as well as the Geological knowledge.
Thanks for all.Terence
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 28, 2013 - 10:21am PT
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Class Act Chef,and I really mean ACT.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Oct 28, 2013 - 11:04am PT
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Ed you are a living sci-fi story. It's amazing the contortions even learned men such as yourself go to to justify belief in this science even as it fails all tests and gets more and more hysterical. I can only believe that underneath this combative veneer of yours is realization of it's failures and occasional fair examinations of better fitting explanations for the ever changing climate.
Bruce, I guess you missed the finer point of swimming in The Chiefs toilet-just where he wants you guys.
Yes, you should boycott this thread before you swirl down the drain enroute to being permanently mounted as trophies in the underground gallery of The Chiefs leach field.
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