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CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
Either the law is upheld, or it's struck down, and we have a clear path to single payer

If it is upheld we will have single payer also because the law will put insurance companies out of business, since it allows people to buy health insurance on demand regardless of pre-existing conditions. That is not a sustainable business model for insurers. I am sure after repeated insurance company bailouts and subsidies the Government will "come to our rescue" with single payer insurance.

CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
As Jon Stewart said, using Solyndra as example is like standing in front of the Hindenburg disaster and saying "See, I told you! Air travel will never work!"

If we had to rely on government to fly, we would be lucky if they could come up with a Hindenburg.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 28, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
If we had to rely on government to fly, we would be lucky if they could come up with a Hindenburg.

Good thing we didn't rely on government to build the atom bomb, or Germany would have beat us to it, and we would all be Nazis now.




The notion that government can't do anything right is absurd.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 28, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
Government flew us to the Moon Cracky. All this talk about severe Government incompetence is mostly BS. We've got great roads, Medicare has far less overhead than private insurance. It's ain't that Bad

Addict wrote

DOE has been in business since the 70s and cost us roughly $20 Billion per year. What have the given us? After nearly a Trillion dollars have been spent, what does the government know about energy? Absolutely nothing. DOE is not going to give us the energy source of the future.

Really? I appreciate that you try to use facts. That's way better than the other conservatives posting (I'm sure plenty of smart conservatives are remaining mum)

Problem is your facts are bogus. DOE Budget for 2005 was less than $2 Billion according to this source. There's no way we spent a trillion on the DOE since the 70s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_budget_process

But i guess it depends on how you add it up. Nuclear Weapons come under the department of Energy and even with stimulus money for clean energy, Nuclear Weapons (even though we have thousands already) use up the big chunk of the DOE budget.


from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Energy#Budget

President Barack Obama unveiled on May 7 a $26.4 billion budget request for DOE for fiscal year (FY) 2010, including $2.3 billion for the DOE Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE). The budget aims to substantially expand the use of renewable energy sources while improving energy transmission infrastructure. It also makes significant investments in hybrids and plug-in hybrids, in smart grid technologies, and in scientific research and innovation.[5]

As part of the $789 billion economic stimulus package in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, Congress provided Energy with an additional $38.3 billion for fiscal years 2009 and 2010, adding about 75 percent to Energy's annual budgets. Most of the stimulus spending was in the form of grants and contracts. Yet, according to Robert Alvarez, "Even with additional stimulus money, spending for bombs and cleanup will still exceed those for actual energy-related functions. Spending for the weapons complex is currently comparable to that during the height of the nuclear arms race in the 1950s. The big difference now — half of that money is spent dealing with the Cold War's environmental legacy.[6] "

Note that the government didn't screw up the Solyndra deal. The government might do better with their own program or research. This was a deal that tried to support that sacred private enterprise that's supposed to do so much better than the government.

It was a loan guarantee gone bust. I don't hear you complaining about the $36 billion in loan guarantees they want for the nuclear energy industry. I will complain about it.

Still, we are going to have to invest to get our energy house in order. It's insane to hope private industry will just save us before we melt down due to peak oil

Peace

karl
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 08:25pm PT

Good thing we didn't rely on government to build the atom bomb, or Germany would have beat us to it, and we would all be Nazis now.

If the plans to build an Atom Bomb were protected by Coca Cola instead of the U.S. Government, not a single third world dictatorship would have nukes right now.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 28, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
If the plans to build an Atom Bomb were protected by Coca Cola instead of the U.S. Government, not a single third world dictatorship would have nukes right now.

Oh come on. If Coke blew up cities, spies would have the formula.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
Problem is your facts are bogus. DOE Budget for 2005 was less than $2 Billion according to this source. There's no way we spent a trillion on the DOE since the 70s.


$2 Billion is for Energy alone, I am talking about the full DOE budget, which as you can see from the above graph, is roughly $20 Billion a year.

Of course the government got us to the moon - there are some thing government can do better than the private sector simply because there is no profit motive for these things. But whenever a profit motive exists, it is best to get government out of the way, because they only distort the market and screw things up. Look at how much we spent on NASA, vs. how much was spent recently by Mojave Aerospace to get Spaceship One into space.

In what industry can the government compete with private industry without subsidies? Not one. How have all those government car makers worked out when they had to compete with foreign competition? Would you buy a car from British Leyland? AutoVaz?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 28, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
The only unit of government that truly excels, or even performs to average levels of private enterprise expectations are operational military units. (We'll leave out the upper levels of the DOD as they are as big, if not larger a cluster f*#k as all the other governmental departments)

What are those units tasked with?

They kill people and break things!


The ONLY thing government excels at and exceeds even the average expectations of private enterprise.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 28, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
The ONLY thing government excels at and exceeds the average expectations of private enterprise.

We have great fire departments and police departments.

Or are you one of those commie police bashers?


we also have safe buildings, bridges, and a safe food supply thanks to the protections of the government.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 28, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
Crack wrote

$2 Billion is for Energy alone, I am talking about the full DOE budget, which as you can see from the above graph, is roughly $20 Billion a year.


20 Billion maybe for 2011 but that's not the historic case. Just as Defense Spending has doubled since 2001, I serious doubt your claim of a trillion dollars spent by the DOE since the 70s and much of that spending is really defense spending in disguise (Nuclear weapons and cleanup for nukes)

The administration of Medicare has an overhead of about 2%. Private insurance has an overhead of around 20%. There's one example of Government being more efficient.

The difference in price between military contractors like Haliburten and actual Army troops is another example of how the private sector can cost more.

There's plenty of places the government would be way more efficient if they got involved because private industry has a motive to keep profits and prices high. I got prescribed an ultrasound bone growth stimulater because of problem healing a certain area of my broken arm. It retails for $1000 to 1800 to the uninsured but my insurance gets a deal for around $600. The device is illegal to resell and has a propriety battery which can't be replaced which insures it will die and can't be passed to somebody else. The damn thing could easily be made to sell for $35 and last for 25 years but that would make it hard to make a killing off of. It is obviously and blatently designed to be inefficient and expensive.

Peace

Karl
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
Mojave Aerospace makes a profit with Spaceship One? Who's distorting what? Show me one profitable 'take people to space' private company and then maybe you can make this point fly... until then? Grounded. No profit for you!

Even a goofy profit motive like flying russian oligarchs into space makes NASA irrelevant. Virgin Galactic is promising to do it for $200K.

Let's see... how much do you think NASA could do it for?
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
Of course, it's literally impossible for anyone but Americans (with the help of a certain liberal German Jewish guy with terminally bad hair) to figure out how to split the atom

Look at your history and tell me how many countries that have the Bomb right now developed it Manhattan Project style. In fact, name one (besides the U.S.).
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
20 Billion maybe for 2011 but that's not the historic case. Just as Defense Spending has doubled since 2001, I serious doubt your claim of a trillion dollars spent by the DOE since the 70s and much of that spending is really defense spending in disguise (Nuclear weapons and cleanup for nukes)

Still waiting... after nearly a Trillion dollars spent, what has the Dept. of Energy done to make us less dependent on foreign oil? Anyone? Buehler?
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
Once the frizzy-haired guy cracked the code, the rest was a foregone conclusion.

And you're whole line of reasoning here is facetious, I hope, right?

At least you're being intentionally entertaining - you wouldn't believe what your ideological counterparts on this thread try to pass off as serious discourse - it's a comedy gold mine.


Again. Check your history before commenting. Remember, this is the World Wide Web.

I thought you were pretty bright Joe, do you really think anyone with the formula E=mc2 can build one? What was the Manhattan project about then? Remember, that was 40 years AFTER Einstein's Special Relativity.

Any Physics experts to help Joe on here? Dr. F?

Definitely a comedy gold mine. Maybe not for the reasons you think though.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 28, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
Of course, it's literally impossible for anyone but Americans (with the help of a certain liberal German Jewish guy with terminally bad hair) to figure out how to split the atom

it was a Wop in Chicago in collaboration with another German Jew that first split the atom under some bleachers.

BTW that other Jew wrote the letter that Einstein signed that kicked off the Manhattan project.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 28, 2011 - 10:14pm PT
No one wants to destroy it.

Just put it back in its Constitutional box.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
Defend this, bitches:

"The Energy Department on Wednesday approved federal loan guarantees for two green energy projects totaling more than $1 billion. It approved $337 million for a Mesquite Solar project in Arizona and $737 million for a Solar Reserve project in Nevada. The projects would create a total of 52-55 permanent jobs, according to earlier DOE figures and company statements. That's about $20 million per permanent job."


http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/586155/201109271759/DOE-Mulls-Loans-For-Green-Projects-At-23-Mil-Per-Job.htm
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
No one wants to destroy it.

Just put it back in its Constitutional box.


Bravo.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
How many permanent jobs did Iraq create?


LOL unfortunately hundreds of thousands.

Yes, this is the handiwork of out of control government.

Remember, I am a libertarian, not a republican. I don't vote republican any more than I vote democrat, depends on the candidate.
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2011 - 10:32pm PT

Trying to remember how many permanent jobs the Apollo project created, or the Manhattan Project

Those are not the kind of jobs that create economic growth. They created a bomb and a moon landing. Money had to be reallocated out of producing real goods and services to create these things.

Was it worth it? That is a value judgment, but no net economic growth ever came out of these projects.

Again, the Soviets employed even more people in their space/bomb programs. How did that turn out?
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