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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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What did Israel accomplish? Israel is withdrawing but Hamas is still in control. Their survival will be seen as a big "victory" by the locals and the Arab world.
Hamas lost some men, but they can replace them.
$1.5 billion in infrastructure was destroyed, but Saudi Arabia has already promise $1 billion to rebuild.
Many tunnels were damaged or destroyed but they will be repaired or rebuilt. Hamas will use the tunnels to smuggle in new weapons to replace the ones they lost.
Many Palestinians will hate the Israelis more then they already did? (The pictures of dead children will do that.)
So what did Israel accomplish?
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Jan 20, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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They disabled some rockets before they were fired.
Period.
Oh, and killed a few people.
Those rockets have killed fewer people this year than Mexican Drug Cartels have killed Americans, (narcosphere reports 5612 human deaths from the druggies in 2008)
US could take a lesson from Israel because democracy says people are voting with their dollars, keeping the drug guys essentially more powerful than the mexican government and they aren't only killing people with guns but I have a few dead acquaintences as a result of the drugs as well. So would the US invading Mexico and bombing the crap out of it be an equivalent action?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 09:54am PT
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Gandhi on Jews & Middle-East
A Non-Violent Look at Conflict & Violence
Article Written on November 20, 1938
Published in Harijan on November 26, 1938
This Web Page Last Updated: January 15,2009
It is of utmost importance to remember the time of this writing. It is 1938, Hitler is ruling Germany, and the clouds of a terrible conflict have begun to form. Gandhi's article shows his incredible sense of right and wrong, his blind faith in his methodology, and his profound vision of things to come. -Ed.
by Mohandas K. Gandhi
Several letters have been received by me asking me to declare my views about the Arab-Jew question in Palestine and the persecution of the Jews in Germany. It is not without hesitation that I venture to offer my views on this very difficult question.
My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews.
But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.
The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French. If the Jews have no home but Palestine, will they relish the idea of being forced to leave the other parts of the world in which they are settled? Or do they want a double home where they can remain at will? This cry for the national home affords a colorable justification for the German expulsion of the Jews.
But the German persecution of the Jews seems to have no parallel in history. The tyrants of old never went so mad as Hitler seems to have gone. And he is doing it with religious zeal. For he is propounding a new religion of exclusive and militant nationalism in the name of which many inhumanity becomes an act of humanity to be rewarded here and hereafter. The crime of an obviously mad but intrepid youth is being visited upon his whole race with unbelievable ferocity. If there ever could be a justifiable war in the name of and for humanity, a war against Germany, to prevent the wanton persecution of a whole race, would be completely justified. But I do not believe in any war. A discussion of the pros and cons of such a war is therefore outside my horizon or province.
But if there can be no war against Germany, even for such a crime as is being committed against the Jews, surely there can be no alliance with Germany. How can there be alliance between a nation which claims to stand for justice and democracy and one which is the declared enemy of both? Or is England drifting towards armed dictatorship and all it means?
Germany is showing to the world how efficiently violence can be worked when it is not hampered by any hypocrisy or weakness masquerading as humanitarianism. It is also showing how hideous, terrible and terrifying it looks in its nakedness.
Can the Jews resist this organized and shameless persecution? Is there a way to preserve their self-respect, and not to feel helpless, neglected and forlorn? I submit there is. No person who has faith in a living God need feel helpless or forlorn. Jehovah of the Jews is a God more personal than the God of the Christians, the Musalmans or the Hindus, though, as a matter of fact in essence, He is common to all the one without a second and beyond description. But as the Jews attribute personality to God and believe that He rules every action of theirs, they ought not to feel helpless. If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German may, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment . And for doing this, I should not wait for the fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance but would have confidence that in the end the rest are bound to follow my example. If one Jew or all the Jews were to accept the prescription here offered, he or they cannot be worse off than now. And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy which no number of resolutions of sympathy passed in the world outside Germany can. Indeed, even if Britain, France and America were to declare hostilities against Germany, they can bring no inner joy, no inner strength. The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant. For to the god fearing, death has no terror. It is a joyful sleep to be followed by a waking that would be all the more refreshing for the long sleep.
It is hardly necessary for me to point out that it is easier for the Jews than for the Czechs to follow my prescription. And they have in the Indian satyagraha campaign in South Africa an exact parallel. There the Indians occupied precisely the same place that the Jews occupy in Germany. The persecution had also a religious tinge. President Kruger used to say that the white Christians were the chosen of God and Indians were inferior beings created to serve the whites. A fundamental clause in the Transvaal constitution was that there should be no equality between the whites and colored races including Asia tics. There too the Indians were consigned to ghettos described as locations. The other disabilities were almost of the same type as those of the Jews in Germany. The Indians, a mere handful, resorted to satyagraha without any backing from the world outside or the Indian Government. Indeed the British officials tried to dissuade the satyagrahis (soldiers of non-violence) from their contemplated step. World opinion and the Indian Government came to their aid after eight years of fighting. And that too was by way of diplomatic pressure not of a threat of war.
But the Jews of Germany can offer satyagraha under infinitely better auspices than Indians of South Africa. The Jews are a compact, homogeneous community in Germany. they are far more gifted than the Indians of South Africa. And they have organized world opinion behind them. I am convinced that if someone with courage and vision can arise among them to lead them in nonviolent action, the winter of their despair can in the twinkling of an eye be turned into the summer of hope. And what has today become a degrading man-hunt can be turned in to a calm and determined stand offered by unarmed men and women possessing the strength of suffering given to them by Jehovah. It will be then a truly religious resistance offered against the godless fury of dehumanized man. The German Jews will score a lasting victory over the German gentiles in the sense that they will have converted that latter to an appreciation of human dignity. They will have rendered service to fellow-Germans and proved their title to be the real Germans as against those who are today dragging, however unknowingly, the German name into the mire.
And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart. The same God rules the Arab heart, who rules the Jewish heart. They can offer satyagraha in front of the Arabs and offer themselves to be shot or thrown in to the Dead Sea without raising a little finger against them. They will find the world opinion in the their favor in their religious aspiration. There are hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, if they will only discard the help of the British bayonet. As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them.
I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.
Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth. Every country is their home including Palestine, not by aggression but by loving service. A Jewish friend has sent me a book called The Jewish Contribution to Civilization by Cecil Roth. It gives a record of what the Jews have done to enrich the word's Literature, art, music, drama, science, medicine, agriculture, etc. Given the will, the Jews can refuse to be treated as the outcaste of the West, to be despised or patronized. He can command the attention and respect of the world by being man, the chosen creation of God, instead of being man who is fast sinking to the brute and forsaken by God. They can add to their many contributions the surpassing contribution of non-violent action.
© 1987 Navajivan Trust.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jan 20, 2009 - 11:21am PT
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"These launchers were rigged for precision-targeting in Israeli town centers. They were operated by a unit of 300 special Hamas operatives trained for their mission at a Syrian military bases under the instruction of Hizballah rocket specialists."
Pleeez...Hamas fired off 1,200 rockets last year and killed less than 10 Israelis. Hardly "precision-targeting".
The IDF's response was grossly disproportionate and basically a slaughter.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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You are an idiot jeff. Gandhi was absolutely aware of what was going on. When the average American refused to believe the stories coming out of Poland Gandhi was lobbying the US administration to get involved to stop this human attrocity. He never wavered in his opposition to a Jewish ONLY homeland in Palestine.
By the way my wife's best friend and co-conspirator in the peace movement in Palestine/Israel The honorably Rabbi Firestone and her husband are on the podium with Obama at this very moment by his personal invitation. I know you know who she is since you JDL and AIPAC types despise her for her progressive views. She is a vastly braver human than you or all the IDF soldiers combined. Guess what you lose! A new day is dawning. Thank GOD!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
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Your desperation shows like a plumber's butt crack. Just say NO to crack!
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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Jeff,
Face it you are morally and intellectually bankrupt.
Your ideas are like month old fish in the sun - they stink!
Work with the world for good for ALL not just your Zionist bretheren.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
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My post from the Gandhi-Middle East thread. (cause fatty dropped my name)
There is no doubt that Israel was created by the force of British colonialism. Why even try to dispute that?
We always suffer from the reverberations from the past of slavery and oppression that the round of ignorant exploitation that previous generations left us with.
Wars like Vietnam were the direct result of defending colonial invasions alleged to spread Christianity, civilization or sometimes even the glory of conquest itself.
Of course, it's not like the West and Christianity came up with the Idea. War used to be the sport of kings, and Muslims swept over the globe, along with Greeks and Romans.
Humans have always been destructive little children with few real morals outside of sexual inhibition. It's time to grow up. Today, inauguration day, is as a good a time as any to ask for justice.
Justice will have to come fresh because our pasts have been tainted by layer after layer of successive injustices. There is no restoring the past. Only moving on better than before.
Peace
Karl
edit: From Obama's speech"
"We remain a young nation, but in the words of Scripture, the time has come to set aside childish things. The time has come to reaffirm our enduring spirit; to choose our better history; to carry forward that precious gift, that noble idea, passed on from generation to generation: the God-given promise that all are equal, all are free, and all deserve a chance to pursue their full measure of happiness."
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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"I do, I want the Palestinians to have a prosperous country on the WB and Gaza. "
Lip service, Jeff, lip service. That's all.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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"There is no doubt that Israel was created by the force of British colonialism. Why even try to dispute that?"
No more then the Palestinians in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza are the result of Ottoman and Islamic imperialism.
And let's not forget how many Israelis were pushed out of other Middle Eastern countries. They played a major role in creating Israel.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
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The ONLY solution for a Just Peace in the ME is a one state solution.
A unified secular democracy fully inclusive of ALL citizens.
Israel will likely need to be forced by a united world opinion to accept that solution.
It is more than possible.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
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DaftRAT You have NEVER been right. You are not right now. Except right wing.
Biden was talking about the unjust invasion of Gaza.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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"Israel will pre-emptively attack the Iran nuke sites."
I pray for this day, Jeff.
So that the Zionist regime will be wiped from the face of the map.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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Hey DaftRat; how do you explain the horrendous double standard in Tsipi Livni's incessant railing on the Palestinians as terrorists, while she herself is the daughter of two of the most infamous Irgun gang terrorists. Her daddy was the scum behind the bombing of the King David hotel. Killed a lot of innocent civilians that day. Curiously they dressed as Arabs because no one thought suspiciously of the Arabs then. It was the radicalized Jews who were held in suspicion in those days. Now Tsipi calls the Palestinian Kafiyah as the flag of terrorism. What a female HOUND.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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So something to think about...
At this weekend's rally in Denver for support of the Palestinians a group of pro Israeli dancers showed up to cause distraction. I am all in favor of free speech. But reverse the rolls. How would it be perceived if 1300 Jews had been slaughtered and a handful of Arabs showed up to a peace full protest and started dancing?
I don't think it would go down as well or be as tolerated as it did it Denver.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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INTERNAL POLITICS? REALLY?
So it's OK for israelis to be terrorists when it suits THEIR goals, but it is never OK for Arabs?
How many past Israeli Prime Ministers have their hands soaked in the blood of terrorism?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
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And don't complain when the primitive rockets fly either. Right Jeff?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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Israel uses depleted uranium on civilians in Gaza!
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6990
How FAIR!
While the "cease fire" holds the Israeli navy continues to shell the coastal water off the coast of Gaza. The IAF continues to fly drones overhead night and day . And the F 16s swoop low and drop their counter measure flares and flak on the heads of the devastated Gazans.
How very fair.
Jeff lets take a trip together. I will follow you through Israel and you can follow me through the ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED territories. What do you say big man? Got balls?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
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"There is no doubt that Israel was created by the force of British colonialism. Why even try to dispute that?"
The current iteration of Israel yes, but people have been fighting over that chunk of desert for thousands of years. Sure some on each side thinks they have some kind of divine rights, but in reality that part of the world has changed hands over and over and over.
That land belongs to Arabs and Jews. They need to share it. But radical as#@&%es on both sides can't see that and compromise.
One state solution will not work. The Jews would have far too much power.
Two state solution may work. But it's going to be up to the Jews who have the power in this situation to give the Palestinians a good break. And the Palestinians aren't helping their cause with terrorism.
A 3 state solution may work. Have Egypt run Gaza, and Jordan run the west bank. It's better than what's going on now.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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Sorry Fet you are wrong! A one state solution is the only answer. A secular and inclusive democracy that benefits ALL people.
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