Huge 8.9 quake plus tsunami - Japan

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Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 19, 2011 - 10:28am PT
I just watched the Saturday night 11 pm news on NHK.

The Fire Chief of the Tokyo firemen dealing with the reactors has given a very detailed report on NHK. He mentioned that when they got on site, they discovered contrary to previous information (read Tepco reports), there was too much debris on the site roads to maneuver the trucks closely or pump sea water easily.They then had to clear debris and find alternate routes as well as running hundreds of feet of firehose to get the water where it was needed.

Finally we got some information from technical professionals instead of Tepco officials and politicians, and everyone is feeling much better now.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 19, 2011 - 10:55am PT
See previous reply, Ron, as it is clearly a 6.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 19, 2011 - 11:22am PT
I just finished watching another hour long NHK program titled, "Japan the Past Week", which gave a chronological account of the earthquake, tsunami, evacuation and nuclear problems.

I was impressed with how much emotion Japanese people were showing. It probably doesn't look like much to foreigners, but I was surprised.

Two of the three Tokyo fire chief leaders almost cried while giving their reports about the difficulty of the work and the bravery of the men they supervise. The chief noted that as he left for the Daichi reactor, he texted his wife that he was going to the nuclear plant and she texted back, "Please go to save the nation".
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 19, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
What has, and still is happening there is terrible, Jan... Just terrible. :/
WBraun

climber
Mar 19, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
"According to the Japanese foreign ministry, 128 countries and 33 international organizations have offered assistance."

So this is good news ...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 19, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
It's incredible that in spite of blowing the hell out of three reactors to one extent or another, including at least one that probably has a breached primary containment vessel, the threat to the general public so far has been nill.

Outside the gate, radiation levels are minuscule.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/03/19/134658088/radiation-data-near-nuclear-plant-offers-little-cause-for-concern?ft=1&f=1001


The designs do work!

PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Mar 19, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
The designs do work!


TGT If that is working then that means you are OK with a few massive failures.
I wonder how many other nuclear supporters think the same way. In other words we need nukes and we have to accept a few massive failures now and then.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 19, 2011 - 01:12pm PT

source of data from IAEA Update

More go to web site.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 19, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
TGT If that is working then that means you are OK with a few massive failures.

That was one of the most idiotic leaps so far posted.

How did you come up with that?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 19, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
I saw NBC's visit to Chernobyl last night.

At one point their personal meter went from 700 to 7000 in just a couple of steps. And then back again when they stepped back. What are the units here, anyone know: 700 microsieverts per hour? per year, what?

I already know a 5 - 7 sieverts "dose" can kill. According to a couple of tables I reviewed. It is interesting that these tables only said acute dose and didn't actually put these numbers in terms of a specific time like per hour or per day.

So perhaps like sodium cyanide: Whether you take your 3 tablets over the course of an hour or day (as long as its "acutely") a "per hour" or "per day" doesn't matter.

Anyone know more about this?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 19, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
That's been the problem with the reporting.

Evidently knowing the difference between milli and micro is not a requirement for being a reporter or editor.


the highest fence line reading I've seen was +/- 650 uSv per hr. You wouldn't want to hang out there for a day.

A bit farther away it's 3 times average background, but that's misleading. That's probably less than living in upstate New York or Denver. Background rates vary widely.

It's probably more like a couple of sq km of superfund site.

klk

Trad climber
cali
Mar 19, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
That's been the problem with the reporting. Evidently knowing the difference between milli and micro is not a requirement for being a reporter or editor.

Not many folks with a basic functional competence in science and/or engineering are going to go into journalism.

Why would they? If you have some functional science literacy, and you're on of the rare science literates who isn't living out at the intersection of Autism Highway and Asperger Way, and you can translate scientific and engineering information into clear prose at a 6th grade reading level, you can write your own ticket in the corporate world.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 19, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
TGT,

So these meters were likely reading microsieverts per hour your saying? they measure on a "dosing per hour" basis?


.....

klk,

If you have some functional science literacy, and you're on of the rare science literates who isn't living out at the intersection of Autism Highway and Asperger Way, and you can translate scientific and engineering information into clear prose at a 6th grade reading level, you can write your own ticket...

Interesting. Lots of truth in there, I think.

...and if not in the corporate world, then elsewhere.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 19, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
Yes, it's a cumulative dose and measured in hrs or years of exposure.

For comparison chest CT is around 6 mSV delivered in a few seconds.

If you hung out at the gate at Fukushima or Chernobyl for an hour you would accumulate 600 uSv or be getting the equivalent of a CT scan for every ten hrs you were there. You wouldn't want to live there, but a short visit is going to be harmless.

It's cumulative. the average American accumulates a bit over 6 mSv per year.

All radiation follows the inverse square law so it drops off by the square of the distance from the source. The insidious damage comes from the elements that become incorporated within the body like iodine and cesium. Iodine has a half life of only eight days so most of it will be gone soon. The cesium is going to be around a long time.

There will be farmland around the site taken out of production because some of those elements will tend to become concentrated in certain plants, milk etc.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 19, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
The thing to keep in mind is that the detection equipment referenced was designed to pick up the signature of a clandestine nuclear test and monitor the test ban treaty.

It's incredibly sensitive and just because it detected something it doesn't correlate to a health hazard.

These have been up since day one cruising the pacific as well.

http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=192
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 19, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
As I posted earlier, regarding dose and dose rate...

To put dose rate (radiation intensity) verses dose (radiation absorbed) into perspective...

Say that you get a medical chest x-ray...

In order to expose the very fast film to get the image, the film needs about 200 mR total (note that this is more than my average yearly dose [~125 mR] working at nukes). Since this exposure is made in a matter of 1-2 seconds, that means dose rates are 720 R/hr (720,000 mR/hr) for a 1 second exposure and 360 R/hr (360,000 mR/hr) for a 2 second exposure.

Point being... Being breifly exposed to even an extremely high dose rate (as those 'dose rates'are EXTREMELY high) does not equal bad. That's why the principles of ALARA (As Low As Reasonable Acheivable) include time, distance, and shielding.

Time exposed X dose rate = dose (I.e., less time equals less dose)

Distance because the inverse square law means that as the distance is doubled, the radiation intensity (dose rate) is quartered, etc...

Shielding because radiation intensity (dose rate) is attenuated by radiologically dense materials, thus less once it has passed through the shielding



This will explain much, and it's a pretty easy read...
http://www.drvxray.com/xray_exposure.htm

(Note, unites used are those used in the US.)




graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 19, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
I remember a scene in a movie where they had a radiation exposure in a lab or classroom and quickly did the math to figure out who was at great risk and who was safe because they were further away. Some Manhattan project movie I think but even that seems like it is science fiction now as this stuff is far from absolute.


Was it this? This must have been the first and last time someone "handmade" a critical reaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Slotin#The_criticality_accident

The criticality accident


A re-creation of the incident. The upper half of the beryllium shell is grasped by a thumbhole. The inner plutonium core (or cavity for it) is not visible.




On May 21, 1946, with seven other colleagues watching, Slotin performed an experiment that involved the creation of one of the first steps of a fission reaction by placing two half-spheres of beryllium (a neutron reflector) around a plutonium core. The experiment used the same 6.2-kilogram (13.7 lb) plutonium core that had irradiated Harry K. Daghlian, Jr., later called the "Demon core" for its role in the two accidents. Slotin grasped the upper beryllium hemisphere with his left hand through a thumb hole at the top while he maintained the separation of the half-spheres using the blade of a screwdriver with his right hand, having removed the shims normally used.[2] Using a screwdriver was not a normal part of the experimental protocol.

At 3:20 p.m., the screwdriver slipped and the upper beryllium hemisphere fell, causing a "prompt critical" reaction and a burst of hard radiation.[9] At the time, the scientists in the room observed the "blue glow" of air ionization[citation needed] and felt a "heat wave". In addition, Slotin experienced a sour taste in his mouth and an intense burning sensation in his left hand.[2] Slotin instinctively jerked his left hand upward, lifting the upper beryllium hemisphere and dropping it to the floor, ending the reaction. However, he had already been exposed to a lethal dose (around 2100 rems, or 21 Sv) of neutron and gamma radiation.[14] Slotin's radiation dose was about four times the lethal dose, equivalent to the amount that he would have been exposed to by being 1500 m (4800 ft) away from the detonation of an atomic bomb.[15]

As soon as Slotin left the building, he vomited, a common reaction from exposure to extremely intense ionizing radiation.[2] Slotin's colleagues rushed him to the hospital, but irreversible damage had already been done. His parents were informed of their son's inevitable death and a number of volunteers donated blood for transfusions, but the efforts proved futile.[2] Louis Slotin died nine days later on May 30,[16] in the presence of his parents. He was buried in Winnipeg on June 2, 1946.[2]

At first, the incident was classified and not made known even within the laboratory; Robert Oppenheimer and other colleagues later reported severe emotional distress at having to carry on with normal work and social activities while they secretly knew that their colleague lay dying.

The core involved was subject to a number of experiments shortly after the end of the war and was used in the ABLE detonation, during the Crossroads series of nuclear weapon testing. Slotin's experiment was set to be the last conducted before the core's detonation and was intended to be the final demonstration of its ability to go critical.[15]

The accident ended all hands-on critical assembly work at Los Alamos. Future criticality testing of fissile cores was done with special remotely controlled machines, such as the "Godiva" series, with the operator located a safe distance away in case of accidents.


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 19, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
Thanks for all the clarification.

Thought this was pretty cool:



Not bad. For an evolved hairless ape. ;)
klk

Trad climber
cali
Mar 19, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
With all sincerity, I'd be grateful if you'd elaborate on this. What sorts of job positions are you thinking of?

The world of corporate tech is basically divided into halves: on one side, all the wonks doing the research/app development. On the other, management, PR, marketing, The Board, potential investors, Wall Street, policy folks, etc.

The wonks tend to be tragically under-socialized as well as typically lacking in verbal and literary skills. The rest of the world is lacking in technical competence. There are entire genres of jobs that do nothing but mediate these two halves, both inside and outside of particular companies and sectors. Investment banking, financial analysis, law, and marketing are four of the obvious big money areas where a mix of technical background with actually writing ability and presentability is highly bankable.

The ability to take weird, technical ideas, simplify them, and present them in ways that are appropriate to the target audience-- say, potential investors or a legislator or a jury--is highly marketable. That's one of the reasons K-12 math and science education has collapsed in this country, very few folks who have the talent to do it properly are willing to put up with the crummy salaries and cultural abuse that are the special province of teaching in the public schools.

Even if you are a literary version of the tragically under-socialized math geek, there are niches for you in industry that pay better than journalism or even academia. In the Bay Area, even Technical Writers -- the lowest rung on the career ladder for folks with that mix of skills --start at salaries much higher than those of a journalist (if there were even jobs in that sector) or even Assistant Professors in Humanities at either of the two world-class research universities.

Look at how pathetically grateful all of us have to be to Adam for his useful posts on this topic. And that includes those of us who have some sort of science background.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Mar 19, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
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