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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 27, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
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"The Buffet Tax" is a bunch of baloney...
Obama loves to use the example of a billionaire paying a lower rate than his secretary. Trouble is, it is simply not true. Buffet has almost all of his money in stock equity (mostly in Berkshire Hathaway). The money he makes on this equity is based on the amount of profit Berkshire makes, which is taxed under the corporate tax rate (35%). This is a hidden double tax which the secretary does not pay.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 27, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
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They claim they want to do so now and that appeals to me.
Do you believe everything people claim? Mercy Lois. Look at some facts sometimes. Being a blind Republican is foolish. Being a blind anything is foolish.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 27, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
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As far as I've ever heard, Buffet's "agenda" is making money the good old Capitalist way. Buying and selling major stakes in usually publicly held companies. What other agenda are you accusing him of?
Get a grip.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 27, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
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"Obama loves to use the example of a billionaire paying a lower rate than his secretary. Trouble is, it is simply not true."
So either Buffett doesn't know what he's talking about, or you don't.
Gee I wonder which?
Hahahahahahaha
If I am lying, then there must NOT be a 35% Corporate tax that is paid IN ADDITION to capital gains and income taxes? Whew, that is good to hear. Now I see some incentive to actually try to make money!!
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction Joe.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 27, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
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The simple fact of the matter is that LIFE is not fair.
Cop out. Progressive taxes are more fair. When things get tough, you just rationalize things away.
It is harder for the poor. Oh well. Life is unfair. Meh..Your life philosophy sucks.
You don't want the draft because it might hurt you more then it would hurt a poor person. meh..
You prefer a flat tax because it is easier.. Meh..
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 27, 2011 - 03:52pm PT
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The simple fact of the matter is that LIFE is not fair Ergo the government should perpetuate unfairness wherever possible by law and regulation? There is an intrinsic good in unfair social outcomes? Society benefits when bad things happen to good people? When we collectively (oh NO! not the "collective" word) decide that a social construct is unfair to a class of people, (segregation comes to mind) we let it persist?
Here we agree, a progressive tax structure is the most fair Also agreed, surprisingly. Therefore we just have to translate the word "progressive" into tax law. The Devil is in the details.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 27, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
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fat...would that be the same Cantor that voted for Bush's stimulus, Bush's unpaid wars and Bush's unpaid prescription plan?
The man voted yes on every republican spending bill.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
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Arguing the specifics of Buffett's office's tax structure misses the point. Buffett released neither his own nor his secretary's tax return, so we can't judge the truth of his statement.
We can, however, judge the point being made that the rich pay a lower rate than the middle class. One of the good things that came out of the Obama/Buffett stunt was the investigation of the incidence of taxation. That investigation demonstrated that the rich pay a higher rate than the middle class on average. This was apparently news to the left. It was no news to the rest of us.
John
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 27, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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I climbed three weeks ago.
Rock climbing, Fats. Climbing the front steps to the KFC for an 8-piece bucket of the Col's original recipe don't really count.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 27, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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Oh John.. It isn't news to the left. We just don't think the few percentage points they pay more is adequate. The right go on and on about how abusive the rates are, but it turns out that they aren't that far apart when you factor in all taxes.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 27, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
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Buffett released neither his own nor his secretary's tax return, so we can't judge the truth of his statement.
Wrong. He provided it on Charlie Rose back in August.
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apogee
climber
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Sep 27, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
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"That investigation demonstrated that the rich pay a higher rate than the middle class on average."
If that 'investigation' demonstrated that the sum total that the uber-rich pay is more than a similar number of middle class, that's not surprising. After all, they paid more because they earned a shiteload more. They're uber-rich, after all.
If that 'investigation' demonstrated that the tax policy & rates were higher than the middle class, I must have missed that. In either case, feel free to post up some supporting data.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
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"That investigation demonstrated that the rich pay a higher rate than the middle class on average."
If that 'investigation' demonstrated that the sum total that the uber-rich pay is more than a similar number of middle class, that's not surprising. After all, they paid more because they earned a shiteload more. They're uber-rich, after all.
If that 'investigation' demonstrated that the tax policy & rates were higher than the middle class, I must have missed that. In either case, feel free to post up some supporting data. "That investigation demonstrated that the rich pay a higher rate than the middle class on average."
You're right -- you missed that. Since you asked,
"WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama makes it sound like there are millionaires all over America paying taxes at lower rates than their secretaries.
“Middle-class families shouldn’t pay higher taxes than millionaires and billionaires,” Obama said Monday. “That’s pretty straightforward. It’s hard to argue against that.”
The data tells a different story. On average, the wealthiest people in America pay a lot more taxes than the middle class or the poor, according to private and government data. They pay at a higher rate, and as a group, they contribute a much larger share of the overall taxes collected by the federal government. . . ."
You can get more (with [probably unwelcome] editorial comment:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ap-fact-checks-obama-are-the-wealthy-really-taxed-less-than-secretaries/
Wrong. He provided it on Charlie Rose back in August.
Then I'm sure you will provide me with his tax return and that of his secretary.
John
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 27, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
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You would be wrong again Lois.
Flat taxes are regressive because they hurt the poor more.
If I make a billion dollars a year and I am taxed 10 percent. I still have 900 million dollars. It is very easy to live on 900 million dollars a year. ( yes, these figures are exaggerated to make a point )
If I make 10,000 dollars a year and I am taxed 10 percent, I now only have 9,000 dollars a year to live on.
That thousand dollars makes a huge difference to a poor person. Sometimes the difference between living on the street and not living on the street.
Whereas the only problem that person making a billion dollars would face is how big of a yacht he could afford. Whoopie..
That is why flat taxes are regressive and shouldn't be used for something as important as national healthcare.
Right now I am poor. My income is such that I can only afford to go to town once a week. There are times when I need to go to town more often in order to get adequate healthcare, but I can't afford it. Your tax, just to make everyone pay, might not seem that bad to you, but you should try living on the edge sometime.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
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"Then I'm sure you will provide me with his tax return and that of his secretary."
At which point you'll accuse him of lying again.
The standard excuse provided by repubs when their failed ideology is refuted by facts, truth, reality etc.
Where are the facts? Are you saying that Buffett disclosed his and his secretary's tax returns? If so, prove it. Otherwise, you're just speaking loudly and pounding the counsel table.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
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John M,
The standard denifintion of a "regressive" tax is one in which the taxpayer pays an increasing percentage of his or her income as the taxpayer's income decreases. A poll tax (e.g. $1,000 for everyone) is a classic example. A flat tax, by common definition, is one where all taxpayers pay the same percentage. Accordingly, by definition, a flat tax cannot be regressive.
It can, however, be unfair, which is what you (and I, for that matter) think. I personally don't have a horrible disagreement with the current tax rates. I pay a fairly high marginal rate, but I've been blessed with the ability to make a good income, so I don't mind paying that extra income at the current higher rate. Although Obabma's $250,000 rates won't affect me, sad to say, I have trouble justifying asking those who already pay a higher rate to pay a still higher rate. There we disagree.
John
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 27, 2011 - 05:05pm PT
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"Then I'm sure you will provide me with his tax return and that of his secretary."
Just shut the f*#k up John. You made a speculative claim, based on a std GOP talking point, it was false, you were called on it. I ain't your errand boy. Your entire premise - that Buffet is misrepresenting the facts, was preemptively addressed by Buffet himself on national televsion.
Typical republican, spend years crying about "personal responsibilty" and then fail to EVER take ownership when you are wrong.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 27, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
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It is regressive in how it affects a persons life. Numbers wise, yes of course it is not regressive. 10 percent is 10 percent.
But 10 percent isn't the same to a wealthy person as compared to a person barely making it.
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