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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Want to elaborate on my previous post. Clearly, I am approaching this whole debate focusing on the individual and not the merits of the "ethical" or "stylistic" debate which, quite frankly, escapes me due to it being so relative. I have been climbing for 35+ years, most of which I have also been involved in education. I have always been interested in helping kids reach their full potential by exposing them to different challenges which helps them develop strong self concepts and self-reliance. During my 25+ years in education, I have attempted to contact many "climber" types to work with kids in a school setting. In that 25 years, two people have actually been willing to do so......Mark Wellman and Doug Robinson, and they both did outstanding jobs. Climbing to me, outside of the personal challenge, is a vehicle to make sense of the world we live in and our part in it. Most great athletes will tell you that until they found a way to give back to society, their personal successes were somewhat meaningless. Doug Robinson has attempted to articulate this side of our "sport", but I fear it has fallen upon deaf ears. Why can't the climbing community embrace this concept of social responsibility ????
Cracko
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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DR posted above: "Somehow Ksolem's post just got to me. Seems so moralistic and bitter. I just suggested a way to go play on some cool stone. If it offends you, that wasn't my intent. Just walk on by. Your shoes are pinching me, but I'll try to limp a little further in 'em. Maybe get the hang of it."
That was not my intent, and I regret you took it that way. I have just tried to ask well thought out questions here, all have gone unanswered except by the ubiquitous Karl...
I am surprised that my post got to you, after all of what has been said here. Perhaps if I had some footprints of my own on that face I might claim to be offended. Or bitter. I am neither of those things. I am more like dazed and confused (I have also been accused of being cocky, arrogant and some other things unmentionable. But bitterness is not in me and certainly not directed at you.)
On the whole this thread has been a surprisingly healthy conversation considering the topics. Please carry on.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Forgot where Harding was a top downer!?
Over and over and over.
He even had to stop for some holiday.
:-)
I guess you could look at the new route in the same light, hard pitches up, rap down, really long traverse, easy slab climb, rap down, more hard climbing up.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Yeah, I know what you mean stevep, there is a wide area for thought on this, and I, also, have a lot of respect for DR and WH. The difference as I see it, is that those rivit (not bolt) ladders were still an adventure into the unknown and thus, yeah an ethically bigger deal.
So Trad, Siege = rapbolting? ;)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"all have gone unanswered except by the ubiquitous Karl... "
I'm back from India and fallen victim to Supertopitis. That's what ya'll get for complaining about my posting politics.
back on track. Just to see what we have concensus on or not, and to push this thread well past 1000, I have a question.
We've all seen, on these very pages, that the defenders of one kind of style often either employ that same style in other areas, or have their own practices that others have disapproved of, so:
How do we rank style or ethics offenses? Is it just visceral? Like our shared attitudes about a particular act or location should be informing us of what's not OK and what's marginal?
Or do you have a hierarchy of cardinal sins. Care to make a list from worst to marginal? Say something like this (with reasons when unclear)
1. Constructing and adding artificial holds. (Except Alfa Hood ormanments and Ol E Cans)
2. Chipping and glueing (except to reinforce failing holds on sport routes in limited circumstances)
3. Power Drilling (except where legal in sport climbing whorehouses, in National Parks it makes it too easy for egos to go wild. Don't ask, don't tell when responsible elites do it)
4. Chiseling and Trenching heads, particularly if you're going to remove them. (I like to get my panties in a bunch about heads, cause Aid climbers {I'm one sometimes} like to think they're bold but they are destructive and unsustainable.)
5. yada, yada
Just food for thought to see what's important to people.
On to 2000!
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Dr wrote: "Now the kind of climbing that you do, that most of us here do, is too strong a jolt for most people, and for most climbers. So I'm glad there are gyms and sport climbs for those who want less, can handle less. It still helps, still benefits our culture. And the problems it creates, the lines at Nutcracker and the tape wadded up in cracks and the trampeled flowers at the base are pretty easy to solve compared to the horrendous problems facing civilization itself that the point of view created and nurtured through climbing will be helping to solve. "
A couple of points kind of rolled into one. This is a generalization, but the majority of the new people I see coming into climbing through the gyms and sport climbing do not have the same appreciation for the outdoors as those I saw getting into climbing in the 70's and 80's. They are more interested in climbing as a form of physical exercise. Coincidentally, I see the same thing in the bike racing world. For that reason I don't agree that increasing the interest and numbers of climbers is a benefit to our culture.
Also, I blame that same gym/sport climbing origin for the "end justifies the means" attitude I have seen expressed here in this thread. Feeling that the style used was OK because it created a new climb for everyone to do was expressed by many here.
Bruce
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jstan
climber
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After thirty years of doing the same thing over and over, I am surprised when people think a new result will come out. I will not be surprised if I see our race go into extinction with this topic in just the state we see at present. On the other hand if we could manage a change in this discussion, I would begin to feel a little more hopeful as regards the larger picture.
C'est le non-Vie.
Rest assured however, sooner or later "you won't have me to kick around anymore."
I just can't resist that line and "proud or tired". They pretty much span the whole of human experience.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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bump
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Good job, Healyje. You are helping to clarify where we "simply" disagree.
You call yourself "just plain selfish." I see more climbers getting on the stone as an avenue toward fixing "the endless burden of the ills of our growing population." Glad you put it in population terms, since oerpopulation is at the root of our environmental (and many of our social) problems. I support Planned Parenthood, and I put a jar of condoms in the basement where my teenagers and their friends can grab some without anyone knowing.
And I'm willing, even anxious, to have a lot more climbers on "our" stone because I see that as increasing our planet's supply of useful values like trust and, you said it "sharing" (but you gotta mean it), like -- god, do I have to say it? -- teamwork. Like respect for the earth, like awareness of the real limits to its finite carrying capacity. Plus all the venerable trad values like self-reliance, toughness, boldness.
And by the way, there is so much untouched stone out there -- apparently you have no idea. Kindly don't whine about "the last bolt within easy driving range." It's true that adventure and exploration are creeping away from the roadside. It's true that the most accessible stone is going sport. Have you forgotten how to walk? It's actually fun. You get to look around, warm up for...whatever adventure is around the bend.
Take a look at just a fraction of the stuff the Warbler has posted up here, all in and around the Valley. A post in the top 10 right now is "Dream Easy - new 4 pitch 5.8 at Reed's." And in that thread are 2-3 other lines I'd noticed over there. Check Tenaya Canyon -- recent posts about that too. Maybe it was on the Karma post, actually, but folks on this very Taco Stand have named nine separate domes stretching out from Starr King. I knew of only 2 or 3, and I've been paying attention. The High Sierra for hundreds of miles north and south is littered with thousands of unclimbed walls and fine lines -- and that's just the ones I happened to have noticed.
The rate of exploration out there slowed for awhile, like the 80s and 90s. But now it's picking up again. It's actually fueled by climbers following the new progression from gym to sport to trad to adventure and exploration. Kinda cool, and very heartening. I love talking to those people by the sides of Sierra trails, and I've given away more beta than I can count to folks I didn't even know by name.
The first step is away from the roadside. And out of your hoarding self.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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You know whats weird, is that, if I did something that I thought might be controversial, I sure the H would not go blabbin about it to the whole world, have it written up in a magazine, it's almost like a confession of guilt, awaiting the sentence from the rock world, sometimes when people do something bad, they feel a need to confess, does anybody get that vibe, or am I just a piece of lint in the bottom of a crack somewhere?
I mean, if i phuced up a huge national treasure like the dome, i sure the h would not wany anybody to find out!
So full propps for your honesty, if anything else.
I guessi its better than someone finding out:
"Hey, some freak bolted the south wall!"
Then you carry a guilt complex, so now I see this thread as a way to release inner tension so tyat you can climb with a free concious, but the jury is still out, and will remain out for eons to come, so don't stress it, carry on and this thing will sort itself out over time.
Oh, and Death to America!
Are you workingh with Ben Laden?
Did you plant explosives in one of those cracks?
The next act of terroisim will bethe destruction of ell capy or half dome, you watch.
how many tons of TNT to dislodeg the Sa la tee?
And that is the correct pronunciation, BTW.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Bolting plastic holds to El Cap will bring about the Second Golden Age of climbing.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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bhilden: "the majority of the new people I see coming into climbing through the gyms and sport climbing do not have the same appreciation for the outdoors..."
Their ignorance is not their fault. But it sure is an opportunity. Once they get to the crags they're ripe to get schooled. Talk to a nOOb. Do it today. At the very least, cast a kindly glance at their toprope anchors.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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but what are the stinkin rules, help a new freak out for chrissakes?
Its legal to drill a hole in rock and place a bolt.
Its illegal to pick a flower.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I'm back - 650 or so posts later. Just doing my bit, you understand - I've read pretty much everything, and am impressed that we're (mostly) still having a civil discussion, particularly given that a debate about values rarely leads to a definite result.
Some recent posters have brought up the subject of how the climbing community teaches, and influences, newcomers. And how that has changed so very much in the last 20 years or so - not coincidentally, at the same time as the introduction of widespread climbing gyms, reliable bolts, educational videos and literature, and other improvements in equipment and technique. And commercial climbing generally.
Many of those on SuperTopo learned to climb in the 1970s or 1980s, and some even in the 1960s. (Luckily, there's a growing number of those who've learned more recently.) At that time, climbers often learned some basics in a semi-structured environment (club, scouts, etc), but then were pretty much on their own. For many, the next step was a kind of apprenticeship, where we learned from those who were ahead of us. Bridwell's Boys are perhaps the most famous example.
It was as much a mentoring and apprenticeship process as it was pure learning - we absorbed the values and ethos of our community, such as it was, and learned about its history. We knew where we had come from. The roots were in mountaineering, and challenge and risk assessment and management were fundamental. Human character has that hard-wired.
The 1970s also brought the clean climbing revolution, helped considerably by jstan, DR, and others. When prophets speak, and make sense, it's a good idea to pay attention - which most did.
I put a fair amount of time into climbing with novices and near-novices, sometimes in a fairly structured manner. Partly paying back a debt owed to others, some now dead, partly to help pass on values and ethos they won't get any other way.
Despite the differences on this thread, we do share a lot of values, not just with regard to a route on Half Dome, or Yosemite, but to climbing if not life in general. We may have differences as to the application of those values - the humanity! But they are there. Our job is to help transmit them.
Whatever happens, I hope that climbers a century from now are able to still have discussions such as this one, and have values and experiences that fulfill the same needs.
Find some time, and put in the effort to take new climbers out. If they don't know where we came from, and why, how will they figure out where we're going to go next?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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DR wrote:
"Their ignorance is not their fault. But it sure is an opportunity. Once they get to the crags they're ripe to get schooled. Talk to a nOOb. Do it today. At the very least, cast a kindly glance at their toprope anchors."
Excellent point! I had the great fortune to have a father who loved the outdoors and schooled me as to what it is all about. Yes, getting people to the outdoors and helping them to learn why it is so special is a very good thing and enhances our stewardship of the planet.
Bruce
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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As one of the "authors" of Dream Easy I'd say that we approached the climb as an adventure with very different ends in mind. And we did (and still do) have eye on some of the other lines up there.
Eric has a whole list of potential FAs from his vast exploration of the Valley. We have put routes up on remote cliffs right next to Sean Jones routes, too, which lends me some familiarity with at least a portion of those 90 unreported climbs.
The day we started Dream Easy I met Eric at his usual spot as the sun was coming on to Reed's at the turn out. He had a plan and pointed it out to me, "let's go and see what's up there, I think I remember seeing something from another route... are you game?" and I'm always game to follow Eric on one of these explorations as it means adventure.
So we go up and get up the first pitch which follows the "5.6 variation" start to Reed's Regular. Eric gingerly makes his way out right and does some hairball bold lead off of sketchy pro and grainy granite, taking a long time and actually placing a hook which didn't take much to flip off when I went by... not great pro.
That pitch wanders out on the flake who's right side thins to the undercling/lieback climb Duck and Cover which rates a "Scary!" comment in the guide. But we went up on a little slab and sat upon a natural pinnacle. So far so good...
Up the crack, then a little move left to gain the ramp right. Originally we had an idea to take this line to the top of Reed's, so we explored around a bit. The wall above us didn't look very climbable straight on, and the line we thought might penetrate didn't. That day the sun was leaving us early, so we decided to descend. At the prominent belay tree we found no sign of rap slings indicating to us that not many people had ventured up were we had been.
Eric returned with Linda, and ended up cleaning out a crack we had originally thought might be too difficult for the climb we wanted to create... essentially a 5.8 climb on interesting ground. He equipped the climb which ended at the headwall. Somewhat unnatural.
I think Eric and Ian went up and did it as a route, and Clint ended up on it, and a whole lot of other people right now have gone up to do it, some feel that we sandbagged some of the rating... but you can only do so good at guessing these things on an FA.
We had a lot of fun doing it. I've had a lotta fun working with Eric on probably 20 or so new routes throughout the Valley (maybe more, I've lost count over the years). There are some seriously good routes 2.5 hours hiking which I don't think anyone will ever do. We have a bunch on Reed's that will eventually get done.
In every climb with Eric that I've done, we have first considered what our impact would be. Eric says "respect the rock" and we try... which leads to many routes having an "X" rating. This is not because we consider ourselves the badass elite trying to force our insanity on the rest of the climbing world. It's because we don't know if our vision for the route up the line will yield a quality route, we don't want to put bolts in if the route isn't worth it. Respect the rock. Sometimes these climbs get an "X" rating because we didn't go back and re-equip. It is likely that we'll never describe some of these...
Sometimes we leave the bolt kit in the van and commit to a natural line. This sort of climbing leaves the outcome in question, will we figure it out or not? If not, we have to escape back down. On A Walk In The Park we were way high and had to figure out if our way would go, it was very possible that we wouldn't. A gutsy lead by Eric got us through, there may actually be another way, we don't know... maybe someone else will find it. The only description we have, really, is the image of the cliff with my line tracing our route. We didn't alter it in anyway so it is free for anyone else to go up and do the same thing. A great adventure.
Many times an FA team has to make choices about the route. Part of the enjoyment of doing an FA is that you get to do something for the first time yourself. There is a responsibility you take on when you put yourself in the position of making these choices, and a consequence that comes because you did.
We were up on Reed's putting up a route in between all the other wonderful and historic routes that were up there. Part of it was to satisfy that sheer enjoyment of adventure and discovery, different from the joy of repeating another route. But we did have a responsibility not to put up junk, and so we first went up gently, with little impact. We respected the rock.
If we had not, we fully expected to have people criticize us for messing around up there, and we would have deserved it... and taken that criticism.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dr Rock said; "or am I just a piece of lint in the bottom of a crack somewhere?"
That's the first thing you've said that I can agree with.
Too many people are spewing ethical hardlines that are regularly found to be a big grey zone.
I just can't see the expressed inevitability of every square inch of stone being grid bolting on rap and via ferratas everywhere simply because the SFHD got 1/2 rap bolted.
For one thing the climbing community has always done a fair job of self policing. Not an easy task given the renegade banditos who haunt our ranks. And, the American land managers are way too skittish about liability to string via ferrata every where.
Some people seem to forget or ignore that GU is obviously a very stout route and not some watered down pansy sport climb.
We need to hear from repeat ascensionists before passing judgement.
20 years from now GU will be considered an American classic Southern Belle will still not receive a repeat though it may cause a few deaths. And new routes will be put up in new styles.
You want to chop an abomination? Go after the Compressor route. Now that is a mountain of rock that SHOULD be reserved for the elite!
Personally my greater concern is protecting the environment.
Chip Salaun did his breakthrough botanical studies in Rocky Mountain National Park. His finding showed that there were species of plants that grew NO WHERE ELSE on the planet other than The Diamond face of Long's Peak and many of those were hundreds of years old. I am amazed how many folks thing nothing of "cleaning cracks. But they poop all over them selves not about bolts at all but about how they were placed.
As an old school ground up trad climber I am still willing to say that Sean put up a stellar route with the minimum impact on the natural environment. And I think that is way more pridefull than yet another self agrandizing death route or some forced hack job to nowhere.
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WBraun
climber
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The thread is going dead as sticks float down the river to meet other sticks in an eddy only to be separated later again in time.
What's so great about the planet if you only end up in dust in the end as so many people constantly propagate here?
Oh it's for the future of our children they say.
What about you?
Oh I built the house of bolts to save them was their reply.
Don't ask me why, as these sentences just spontaneously leapt out of the blue.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Too much hippy lettuce, werner. we just want to see 1000 before it dies :D
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Werner wrote:Don't ask me why, as these sentences just spontaneously leapt out of the blue.
Same thing happens to me after a few strong vodka's & fresh lemonade. :)
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