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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 22, 2017 - 04:12pm PT
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What I've noticed on this thread and others like it on ST is that science/tech people have a unique argument that goes something like this: "you're wrong." The notion of philosophy's importance as a predicate to science seems undeniable and "you're wrong and I know better and I have the education to prove it and you don't know anything," well, that's just not very convincing.
So when somebody has a sincere belief that the earth is only around 10,000 years old and they want that belief "respected" in their kids science class, we should just shrug and accommodate them?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 22, 2017 - 04:13pm PT
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Science is incapable of the kind of reconciliation to the "tragic nature of life" that religion offers. Religion offers a kind of escape hatch from tragedy which is something, an idea, that seems to "escape" the learned folk on this thread.
And herion offers a kind of escape hatch from the tragedy of real life also.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2017 - 04:26pm PT
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Oh this is interesting...
"I'm an atheist." -paul roehl
What's the difference between (a) Paul, an atheist, not accepting theism, and (b) Mr Doe, a nonreligionist, not accepting religion?
Are we to gather from Paul that not accepting the former (ie., theism) is a-okay but not accepting the latter (i.e., religion) is not.
Given the close assoc between theism and religion, it is rather confusing.
...
Maybe there is not that much difference between (a) Paul, following a critical analysis and deliberation, rejecting theism and (b) the nonreligionist, following same, rejecting religion?
...
Really one should ask... just how productive can any religion be in any of its functionalities if its core conceptual foundation (namely theology or theism) is denied (doubted to the point of denial)?
This is being asked more than ever in this information era, I think, by smart millenials, for eg.; and the answer does not bode well for the future of religion, the Abrahamic religions in particular. It's probably just a matter of time, a couple more generations at most.
The likely outcome: something (placeholder term: "spirituality") will emerge to replace religion and this "something" - though not science - will have science as its foundation. It'll specialize in meaning, value and purpose together with strategies, protocols, etc for good living - specialties obviously not the job of science.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:03pm PT
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What's the difference between (a) Paul, an atheist, not accepting theism, and (b) Mr Doe, a nonreligionist, not accepting religion?
Here's what you seem to never get: there is great wisdom in the mythologies and religions of the world. Religion helps people.
You keep pointing out aberrations like fanatic Islamists or fundamentalist Christians, but the mass of religious believers are just plain folks. Drop the aberrations and consider the help religion has been to so many.
Additionally, you impose on metaphorical notions that inform and reconcile the inappropriate and nonsensical rigors of scientific accuracy.
Myth isn't protoscience, its intentions are not scientific, it communicates through metaphor, and in the search for a life well lived and a life of virtue myth and religion are powerful tools.
I accept religion for what it is, a system of ideas that take us through life, inform us with regard to those things in life that cannot be changed and those events we find difficulty accepting. The creation story isn't a scientific description it's a metaphor of an etiological nature that offers insight into human nature, I mean really? What's so hard to understand here?
Think about it.
And herion offers a kind of escape hatch from the tragedy of real life also.
Herion? You mean like a Great Blue Herion? Or did you mean heroin? I hope you can perceive the difference between heroin and religious faith or perhaps you favor the Marxist notion of the opiate of the masses.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
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The creation story isn't a [scientific] description [of reality], it's a metaphor of an etiological nature that offers insight into human nature, I mean really? What's so hard to understand here?
So tell it from a soapbox on a cornerstreet in downtown Islamabad.
Really, you think you'd survive the night?
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
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What's so hard to understand here?
For you? Seems like not much. You already understand that you're right - that what you believe is true.
For the shallow and ill informed rubes? That religion is just metaphor. That our skin color doesn't affect our brain functioning. Stuff like that.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
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So tell it from a soapbox on a cornerstreet in downtown Islamabad.
Really, you think you'd survive the night?
Honestly, do you realize how nonsensical that statement is? I would never say stand at ground zero during an atomic blast and tell me how wonderful science is. Never.
For the shallow and ill informed rubes? That religion is just metaphor. That our skin color doesn't affect our brain functioning. Stuff like that.
I honestly do not understand this, sorry.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
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Honestly, do you realize how nonsensical that statement is?
But that is precisely the history of Abrahamic religion everywhere it exists. Literalist fundamentalism. From Islamabad to Wamego, KS. That you utterly disregard this FACT - and the net hurt it incurs - in every one of your hundreds of posts is glaringly negligent.
I would never say stand at ground zero during an atomic blast and tell me how wonderful science is.
Your continuing analogy between science (at its core: discovery, gain of knowledge) and religion (at its core: God, theology, supernaturalism) is crude. Your continuing failure to distinguish science from applied science (ref: engineering, technology) is also crude. They are not the same.
When you impugn science you also impugn knowledge, understanding re how the world works, education. Do you really desire to do that?
You should nuance science from applied science (aka prescriptive science), science from engineering, science from technology, and science from the science community.
Time will tell. Science will be here 100 years from now. (Theistic) religion won't be.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
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But that is precisely the history of Abrahamic religion everywhere it exists. From Islamabad to Wamego, KS. That you utterly disregard this FACT in every one of your hundreds of posts is glaringly negligent.
Do you have any idea how many religious belief systems exist in this world? You don't like Islam and fundamentalism in general: fine. But good grief you condemn all religious thought based on the fallacy that metaphorical images should be interpreted scientifically. What's glaringly missing here is a rational understanding.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:32pm PT
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But neither one of us would stand on that soapbox either in Islamabad now or in Wamego KS a hundred years ago to claim that God isn't real but only allegory or myth. What's that say?
Truly, I don't think you really know what it is to be raised in a fundamentalist family in a fundamentalist community in a fundamentalist state.
If you weren't raised in such, consider yourself lucky.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:34pm PT
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I agree that there is a lot of wisdom in many of the myths associated with religions....
...why I'm thinking of the The Tower of Babel myth right now!
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
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I honestly do not understand this, sorry.
Fair enough. I expect we could learn to understand your inability(?) to understand it, given information and time and a scientific approach to it :-)
Best to you!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
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Back to the basic question you didn't answer, Paul.
What's the difference really between your rejection of theism (you're an atheist) and my rejection of religion (I'm a nonreligionist)?
There's no Tower of Bable here. The question is quite clear and concise.
Answer, Paul.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
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Truly, I don't think you really know what it is to be raised in a fundamentalist family in a fundamentalist community in a fundamentalist state.
You realize as a scientist that your personal experience is simply anecdotal evidence and has nothing to do with a larger understanding of religions and their role. Your experience with fundamentalism has nothing to do with the true state of religion throughout the world.
What's the difference really between your rejection of theism (you're an atheist) and my rejection of religion (I'm a nonreligionist)?
As I explained before there is great wisdom to be found in religion and that wisdom can be understood without faith. Faith improves that wisdom and I wish I had it. Your disdain for religion discounts that wisdom and that's the difference.
Fair enough. I expect we could learn to understand your inability(?) to understand it, given information and time and a scientific approach to it :-)
Yeah, I don't understand this either.
What does the story of the Tower of Babel tell us? Plenty. What is it.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
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I agree there is a lot of wisdom associated with many of thee myths associated with religion
I agree, honestly, there is wisdom there, like there's wisdom in the structure of a leaf.
A lot of religion and myth was created long ago, when there was less information available, and there was kind of a fuzzy process of codifying it. Was it the result of the masterful work of exceptional artists who painstakingly codified their awesome understanding of human nature into beautiful art that directly communicated truth into our psyches? Me, I'm not so much in that believer camp.
I think as we move forward our beliefs and belief processes are evolving (maybe not in a biological sense). We're able to more precisely state truths, without the easily misunderstood ambiguities.
I appreciate that there's a continuum of progressive and conservative belief creation strategies among humans, and if your thing is to admire the conservative strategies, that's cool.
Cheers!
I love that, but its already taken. I really admire DMTs prosocial communication style. No evolutionary advantage to be had there! :-)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
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I've been studying religions since high school. I've told you this many times over many years now. It's a shame it has to be repeated here for your benefit so often.
your personal experience is simply anecdotal evidence and has nothing to do with a larger understanding of religions and their role. Your experience with fundamentalism has nothing to do with the true state of religion throughout the world.
Utter nonsense.
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But isn't there great wisdom in the world's theologies and theisms? I don't get it, how you can reject theology and theism but not religion?
"Your disdain for religion discounts that wisdom and that's the difference."
My criticism and rejection of Abrahamic religions are based on (a) their reliance on supernaturalism for viability and (b) umpteen millions believing this iron-age "myth" as truth that ultimately causes pain and suffering.
Valid and accurate phrasing matters, Paul.
Since you're an atheist, what about your "disdain" for the world's great theisms?
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
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Current thread drift
How about another question?
What is the future of religion?
Studies, polls, show an increasing percentage of the population that does not identify with a particular religion, in addition to increases in the number who report they are agnostic or atheist
this perhaps does seem to track with a global reduction in wars and violence, along with an increase in overall education levels
so where are we in 500, 1000 years on this, does religion continue to be seen as unnecessary to explain how to live, ethics, morality, as secularism and non beliefs in a creator result as human psychological evolution continues? ...... I think so, you?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 22, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
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I think I remember hearing there are over 4000 different religions in existence presently.
I don't think religion is going away anytime soon.
Utter nonsense.
I'm collecting the science responses. Nice one.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 22, 2017 - 06:00pm PT
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Lol! My kids just say "what?" until I understand that they don't want to understand.
If you're not like my children, and you really do want to understand, what I'm saying is that there are reasons and processes that create our beliefs and behaviors, which eventually we'll be able to understand. Maybe not by fixating on the 72 virgins though. You seem like a bright guy, I expect that you could understand, if it was something that suited you to understand.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2017 - 06:04pm PT
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So it seems, Paul, you accept the wisdom of the world's theologies and theisms yet consider yourself an atheist.
In the very same manner, so-called "science types" can accept the wisdom of the world's religions - what extent there is - and yet consider themselves nonreligious.
How is this not understandable. lol
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"I'm collecting the science responses. Nice one." -Paul
"Utter nonsense" is MY response. To YOUR mistaken post. It is not a science response.
Please, as an atheist, speak to your "disdain" for theism.
....
Per usual, it's been fun....
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