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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 10, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
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rSin, if only it were as benign as that.
Did you view the clip Karal Baba posted?
I am amazed at peoples ability to misplace their trust.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
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I will tell you that NSA takes their responsibility under USSID 18 very seriously.
 SalNichols
While it appears that Sal knows his stuff, it seems he is very much in the dark with regards to how seriously the NSA pays attention to USSID 18.
If anybody still thinks the NSA operates within the law, or that our courts are providing the proper oversight over this black-budge agency, they are simply not paying attention.
And Joe, are you still standing by your accusation that Showden is a treasonous traitor?"
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jul 10, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
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I am amazed at peoples ability to misplace their trust.
Anybody who placed trust in the Bush-Cheney administration got exactly what they deserved.
Curt
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 10, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
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So, just what was the purported goal of the covert ops Snowden "compromised" with his disclosures. I'm sure it will have deathly consequences to our "national security".
You must feel so unsafe and insecure, now that our precious spys have been exposed.
"What ever will we do????"
"Help us"
"Big Brother, please save me from the evil tea-baggers and al-qeda."
Funny stuff!!!!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 10, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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Anybody who placed trust in the Bush-Cheney administration got exactly what they deserved and more of the same with the BO administration.
fixed it for you...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
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bump for staying awake
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 10, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
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So, jhedge, are you saying we should just trust that they are acting in our best interests? I'm sorry but the government lost my trust a long time ago.
And, if these covert ops you speak of were indeed "compromised", it is all out in the open now. So why not explain it to me, unless there is nothing legitimate there to begin with.
What spys were compromised? Who was the Valerie Plame in this incident?
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 10, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
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"The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers, which are cited to justify it."
President John F. Kennedy
Address to newspaper publishers
April 27, 1961
He says it better than I did.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
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Obama recently said: I'm just going to go along with all these jackasses because I don't want to end up like JFK did.
So even Obama calls Hedge a jackass ......
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
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... you refuse to acknowledge, let alone address, the reasons why, so why bother asking me? You just pretend all he did was expose domestic data mining, and ignore the ops he compromised. Hell, you refuse to even admit you understand what the word "compromised" means - that's how far you've stuck your heads in the sand.
I understand what compromised means (especially with the help of your definitions).
But I also read the definition of treason, and don't think it applies to Snowden. Then I read the article where Snowden sez he didn't give the Ruskies or the Chinese access to his laptops or intel that he had:
Edward Snowden: Russia, China Did Not Get Any Documents From Me
Afterwards, I realized that we really don't know what he did or did not let slip. It's all speculation at this point and I don't believe we'll ever know the full extent of what Snowden knows or what intel he has.
Still, after reviewing the content and links in this thread, I'm convinced that somebody passed Snowden some of the juicer pieces of intel, and that was done with the intention to be leaked (like the FICA court order on Verizon, a clear overstepping of the law).
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 10, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
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Ok, so we still are not allowed to know what was compromised, or why it has to be kept secret.
Thats it. Because of "national security". It is like saying abra-cadabra. No oversght, no accountability, no problem, eh????
Seriously, jhedge, do you really feel threatened in some way. These "ops" are really necessary to keep us safe?
There must be some big threat out there that is being hidden from us, right. But we don't need to know what it is. We might panik or something.
C'mon! Where is the Boogieman?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
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LOL Dingus
Ain't that the truth.
And Hedge has become the new fattrad .......:-)
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 10, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
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From the top of the ladder:
I find the degeneration of Jghedge to a tool the size of The Fatrad and The LEB to be rather sad...
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 10, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
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How else are covert ops supposed to exist? You might be able to read about them months or years later, when no damage could occur, but while they still exist?
What I'm getting at is that, just maybe, they shouldn't exist. Maybe they have taken this too far. Perhaps covert operations have become political.
I'll ask nicely: Can you explain to me why we need so much secrecy? Is "national security" the only explanation we are going to get? What is the check on such programs?
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jul 10, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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we need the secrecy so that the American public does not become over reactive and raises so much hell with their congresspeople that they vote to end the program
Thanks, that is probably the most honest answer I can hope for . . .
Democracy? meh
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 10, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
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Jghegde says:
"Just to clarify: My contention that Snowden is a traitor is based on his bragging of his ability to expose foreign field ops, then defecting (essentially) to China and Russia with the data."
Did he brag?
Did he brag about his "ability to expose Foreign Field ops"?
Essentially? What's essentially?
Did he "defect" to China and Russia?
Your line of resoning to hold on to the position of Snowden being a traitor is so full of holes and abstractions that if I used the same type of argument I would say you are bragging about being able to see a traitor based on distorted "facts" and lies, you have defected to non-reason, you do not make sense unless you're seen as a spinning tool.
Snowden is until something else is proven a whistleblower. And spinning and fabrication of weak arguments to support distorted conclusions is not evidens.
America is a strange country having a law to allow monitoring of all it's citizens. What's next: A Law confirming that everything that is spinned by the government, the NSA and their tools is evidence?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
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Jghedge
You say: "His Words (Snowden's): ”I had access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all over the world. The locations of every station, we have what their missions are, and so forth.”
This is information about what he had access to from the whistleblower, nothing else. If these words make him a traitor in your eyes, you're extremely far out. And yes you are. American Security is immune to politics - wasn't that your words. Politics means discussion. You don't want discussion.
And if American security is immune to discussion - is then everyone discussing American security a traitor? I guess you are able to construct such an argument following your line of reasoning.
You're a fundamentalist and a tool.
And at the bottom of your heart you love discussion more than anything else, as your involvement on this thread shows.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
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Hedge uses USA Today for his ever present whitewashed projections of so called experts.
With good reason the MSM USA Today left out inviting people like Russ Tice and others Hedge never heard of.
Hedge as usual knows only heavily censored MSM spin news medias of half truths or no truths.
This why Hedge's whole view is so far gone he's just like the Republicans he so always rails against.
It's vacation time Joe, and get on plane to Hawaii and take a breather ......
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
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Joe, Perhaps Snowden went too far in his intel disclosures--the truth is we don't know.
However, your focusing on this is a red herring to what the actual substanance is with this whole deal, and that is our loss of civil liberties via the black curtain that is the NSA/FBI/CIA.
From a posting on an article about how the majority of Americans now feel the NSA has gone too far:
... I live in the supposed eco groovy college town of Arcata, and I've been starting to casually survey good friends and others, like the guy who works at the corner station who seems like a cool dude, and so far most are unconcerned about having all their data stored by the govt. in a high tech NSA system. They don't acknowledge the clear and present dangers of having advocacy groups and other activists and journalists surveilled, profiled, infiltrated, incarcerated, etc...let alone other nations governments, universities, citizens, etc. The common answer is "I don't have anything to hide. They've always done this, the technology just got better." It's very easy to lose touch with the struggles of the world up here "behind the redwood curtain."
Earlier I said it's not my conversations I'm worried about (at least not yet). However, the silencing of those who expose the wrongdoings of the gov't, and the muffling of any real journalism that might expose corruption--that keeps me turning at night.
Consider letting go of Snowden and concentrate on the real meat of this event.
It's the message and not the messenger.
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