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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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Jan 26, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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for those who posted a picture of Naples' garbage...
I would like to remember that Napoli raised his first splendor during the ''Magna Grecia'' period of southern Italy...when your ''native americans'' (that you kindly erased in the name of progress) probably start to develops agriculture (they didn't!).
Napoli gained still more power and richness during the subsequent periods (Roman, Middle-Age, Renaissance...had you got renaissance?...when Antonello da Messina was working in Napoli what were your ancestral fathers painting...cave walls?!?)
Napoli gained its maximum splendor during the 17th and 18th centuries leaving at the world some of the most magnificent Baroque churches and buildings.
nearly 50 years of ''depression'' for Napoli means nothing compared to its millenarian history...they will pass soon.
I can image that for an American 50 years means ''a lot of time''...may be a quarter of the whole history of the young US...here, in the ''old continent'' are nothing...
cheers,
matteo.
p.s.
this is evidently a provocation...that simply means
''don't discuss about american or italian history, society and life...discuss about the actions done by K&K and why some people (and not nations) like them, and some other people (and not nations) don't like them...even if they definitely don't like the Maestri route on CT''
don't die of ignorance!...please ;-)
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 26, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
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The issue with the compressor is not, and never has been, the imposition of a 'new ethic'. It is rather about a much delayed application of the prevailing ethic of the day. That, and what divides us in this discussion is differing perceptions of whether the route is indeed 'historic' to be preserved, or a continuing blight on a beautiful mountain to be removed. You might be right.
The point is that many climbers want to keep the bolts there.
Many other climbers wanted to remove them.
K&K were the last "guys" who had the right to remove them.
They were not locals.
They used Maestri's bolts.
So, who the hell they think they are to summit Cerro Torre and then decide to remove the bolts on the way down.
But what is worse for me, in my opinion, is that their action is a consequence of a systematic, unfair and insulting campaign against Cesare Maestri, performed especially by Rolando Garibotti.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jan 26, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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I've said that destroying a controversial but nevertheless historic route means denying the history
The route's still there. Lama just climbed it. It's just cleaner now.
Napoli gained still more power end richness during the subsequent periods (Roman, Middle-Age, Renaissance...had you got renaissance?...when Antonello da Messine worked in Napoli what were your ancestral fathers painting...cave walls?!?)
Exactly. And yet it still got covered in garbage over some petty disputes. And everyone just lives with it.
By the way, Cerro Torre predates all of human history.
I can image that for an American 50 years means ''a lot of time''...may be a quarter of the whole history of the young US...here, in the ''old continent'' are nothing...
Exactly. The bolts are 42 years old. Not exactly historic on an Italian time scale.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 26, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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This whole thing has become a bore - yesterday's news.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 26, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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My nephew sh#t on the floor yesterday. We've decided to never clean it up, because you know that would be erasing history...or something.
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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Jan 26, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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dear snorky,
people in the alps started to climb mountain more or less when US born.
40 years for the ''climbing history'' are a lot of time...compressor route, that I don't like, WAS an historical route.
I've chopped a lot of bolts/spits during my climbing life...nevertheless I've never thought to chop the spits/bolts posed by my ''fathers''.
it is/was too late for doing that.
the bolds on the compressor route should be removed by climbers contemporary of Maestri...not after 40 years (rappelling from them!) by two young men.
cheers,
matteo.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 26, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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I think that accusing Kennedy and Kruk of disrespecting and insulting Maestri and his "routes" - and by association, Italians - is an inverse of the original debacle.
If there is anything sacred in climbing, it's the honor system and the trust we place in climbers the world over, that when they say they did this or that route on this or that formation, their word is golden, is the plain truth and nobody has the right to question it, trusting as we all are that we simply don't lie to each other when it comes to historical achievements.
Maestri's claim that he and Toni Egger climbed Cerro Torre in 1959 has been widely written off as an outright fraud by (other Italians, correct??) those who did climb the line decades later. By claiming to have bagged the most fantastic climbing accomplishment of the era, up the most sensational rock formation of ALL time, was to shatter the trust we willingly grant all climbers. This false claim was in fact an insult to the history of mountaineering and everyone who ever tied into a rope. CM took us for fools. And rather than come clean and make amends, he continues to perpetuate what ranks as one of the greatest shams in the history of adventuring, second, perhaps, only to the North Pole controversy.
What's more, Maestri returns to the Torre in 1970, and in what many consider to be a manifest sacrilege, drills his way up the great peak and, once again, gives the impression that he climbed the formation, only for us to learn from Jim Bridwell that Maestri bailed 100 or so feet from the shelf beneath the ice mushroom - meaning he failed once more and wove a fancy tale around it, giving most of us the impression that he had made the 2nd ascent of the peak, when in fact he had never climbed the mountain at all.
By any definition, CM bungled this thing handsomely. The result of the original sham per his alleged 1959 ascent, and his consequent desecration of the mountain with a gas powered drill, has fashioned an awkward, ugly and scandalous situation unique in modern climbing. It's a f*#king mess that embarrasses us all and makes me feel crazy and sad. The very last thing I want to ever do is question a climber's word - be they Italian, American or Mexican. It's just not how things are supposed to work within our fellowship of the rope.
Given the above, it is remarkable to me that anyone, Italian or otherwise, would seek to defend CM's "legacy," or to grant the compressor route special status as a "historical" effort. While Kennedy and Kruk's actions might be questionable to some, they utterly pale next to the ecological disrespect and the complete rupture of trust Maestri has perpetrated on the climbing world from the moment he set foot in Patagonia. His previous accomplishments, great as they are, are totally overshadowed by the dark cloud of Cerro Tore - and that is too damn bad, but he made his choices and he's sticking to them.
The entire CM/Cerro Torre saga must be one of the darkest and regrettable
situations in the history of adventuring. To defend it on "historical" grounds is, in my opinion, as pitiful and misguided as the original violations.
A peak as fantastic as Cerro Torre surely deserved better treatment and greater respect than all this.
JL
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
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Thanks Stinkeye.
I was sure that also in the US, as in the rest of the world (I received messages from Italy, France, Swiss and Germany) people are not too happy for what was done in Patagonia...at least a part ''sage'' of people.
I think that during the next weeks/months more official positions will appear (climbing editors, alpine clubs, ''important'' climbers that for the moment are reflecting...).
The problem is also that for a part of the climbing community the only information channels are the Rolo web site (that is re-visioning also the local and historical toponomy!! erasing what is not coherent with his own ''new history'')...and the un-respectful affirmations of Colin (''Maestri insanity''!!??).
It is important to show to the ignorants (original meaning...those who ignore) that exist a part (majority??) of often ''silent'' people that DO NOT AGREE...and that the history (and the life!) are nor black or white...
Black or white are ok for judge OUR present climbing activity...not what happens 40 years ago!
Have a nice evening (...for me is evening ;-) )
Matteo.
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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''If there is anything sacred in climbing''
...mavacagher!!! == shit!!
I am a climber...I consider the way I climb (by fair means...any bolts, any bolted belay!) far more important than what I climb
nevertheless I'm sage enough to say that climbing is a mere game and not a sacred religion.
using the far more important worlds of Rehinald Karl:
''the chalk is forbidden!!??...if I want I will recover the rock with jam!''
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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Monaco
Cheers. I understand your sentiments, just mostly disagree. I hope you have a great dinner.
Something to contemplate in your sleep?
What if it had happened 28 years ago instead? What about 12? Still historic? Is it really the date that makes it historic? Or the action?
Maestri's actions were historic. The artifacts left behind are modern metal garbage.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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I honestly envy their human and climbing experience ...
I apologize with Rolando Garibotti for the accusation of sending the two boys to chop the route. I inferred that there were more connections between all of them. But it looks clear from their report that it was a decision taken there.
I think they wrote a lot of nonsense ...
Such as ...
Fair means does not mean no bolts. Reasonable use of bolts has been a long-accepted practice in this mountain range. or
The Southeast Ridge was attainable by fair means in the 70s, he stole that climb from the future.
And from what I read in my view they are quite fanatic with zero respect for the past ... but as we know ... this is disputable ...
Well ... I think I'm too politically correct ...
THEY ARE TWO F*#KING IDIOTS!!!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
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f*#king Canadians think they own Italy...
Still unclear if they trundled the compressor...that would be so cool to see...
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mika
Big Wall climber
Zurich, switzerland
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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Today even though the young Kennedy and Kruk belive to have done the right thing, they will go down in climbing history as the Cerro Torre Bolt Coppers, regardless of any future climbing, it's the negative aspect of chopping bolts that will stick.
So once again Cerro Torre strikes back and devides into winner and looser. The constructive winners being my dear friend Casimiro Ferrari, Rolo Garibotti and David Lama, the loosers being the destructive Maestri, Kennedy and Kruk.
mike schwitter
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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This thread is getting boring. Same old sh#t over and over. Enzolino, you keep posting because you think we didn't hear you the first time?
JL is right. None of your opinions matter worth a damn. The bolts were chopped. Done. That's it. Does crying about it make you feel better?
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Cerro Torre is a mountain that will change your life, it for sure did it to Cesare Maestri and will bring its share for Kennedy and Kruk.
After I climbed the compressor route in 1991, I took it as the proof that Maestri had not reached the summit with Egger, for no climber who had done the first clean ascent of such a beautiful mountain would have done such a thing as the compressor route. Today even though the young Kennedy and Kruk belive to have done the right thing, they will go down in climbing history as the "Cerro Torre Bolt Coppers", regardless of any future climbing, it's the negative aspect of chopping bolts that will stick.
So once again Cerro Torre strikes back and devides into winner and looser. The constructive winners being my dear friend Casimiro Ferrari, Rolo Garibotti and David Lama, the loosers being the destructive Maestri, Kennedy and Kruk.
mike Wise and balanced comment ... mike ...
But I thought you lived in Rapperswil!
By the way ... do you think the Compressor route was a "ferrata"?
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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@ Snorky
Sorry for some politics.
You posted a photo of Napoli. It shows how pretty ingnorant you are. "Ignorant"= don't know.
Napoli is 800 km away from my home, which in Europe could be 3 countries and 4 languages. I come from a part of Italy that had a Republic old 1100 years. Well, Republic only 600 years, as state 1100 years (zero counting is correct). We had independent language (still) for very long and last "foreign dominations" where french and a notch of germans.
Napoli had dominations of Spanish and does not share the same story as we do. Honestly speaking, even languages are different despite it's supposed to be the same.
If you compare Napoli in the way you did, to Italy, you can't offend me more. I am sure George W Bush, Ronald Reagan, or many other brilliant of your citizens, have a solution for Napoli, Italy did not had any, except acknoledge that it has the highest density of population in Europe. And Napoli is Napoli.
I will be glad to come and meet you in Carbondale, next time I am there. May be in Boulder.
And teach you something, because you look like a good bloke, and not the ignorant offensive guy that thought knew something.
I save you to post some photos of what your fellow citizens do/did almost anywhere.
Best,
E
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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That video by herzog is very cool. How do you rap off the top? With a bollard? Did K&K use Maestri's bolts for belays? I am assuming those bolts were left then.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
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Reading the words of K&K in Rock and Ice is to me a bit disturbing. Their mentality and their level of reflection is not convincing. Words like rape and atrocity in connection with the bolts has no great ethical weight, and make the article a ST-like polemical one. As the years go by I hope K&K will reach a higher level of ethical reflection. When I read the article and the words they use I am not convinced that they have a higher level of ethical reasoning going on in their heads than Maestri had when he bolted his way up the route. To me it looks very much like self-righteous emotionally motivated hybris.
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