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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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Thanks, Cintune. Now I have a starting point on something I didn't really know about.
Where do Gnostics fit in?
I have climbed Zoroaster temple.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 17, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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Lynn wrote: "Largo, could you please be more definitive in your post of 10/17 at 1:29, especially the last paragraph. I can't figure out what you are saying and I want to understand what you are saying. I would appreciate it. Only way to learn.....
Peace all, lynne"
I had written earlier: "On the other hand we have Song of Songs, the Beatitudes and Sermon on the Mount, and we have amongst us those who can never get past trying to measure and evaluate these as they do other "things" in the hopes of discovering the truth or the meaning. Moreover, it rarely occurs to these people that said truth is something beyond a subjective amalgam, a feeling, a mood."
People generally understand only one kind of "knowing," and it has to do with breaking something down to measurable components, or looking at "things" and deriving laws about their relationships, or the forces that influence said things. Or, they might simply amass facts and figures in the hopes of being able to control or predict processes, or to a lesser degree, "explain" why the sun rises or why cells split or why the chicken crossed the road. Generally, if you have enough information that you can predict how things will behave under certain circumstances, and can replicate this process in a linear causal chain, it is said that you "know" your subject, or that you know and understand something about it, at any rate.
This knowing is almost always based on linear causation- such as A leads to B leads to C etc. This also usually assumes that so-called "higher" functions derive from more fundamental functions that are said to "create" the higher, or put differently, the higher derives from the lower. Such as - the evolved, material brain creates thought and feeling, or, atomic electro chemical activity in the brain "creates" consciousness, and so forth.
Also wound into this thought structure is the belief that only the lower, fundamental functions are "objectively" real facts, whereas the higher functions or "states" are believed to be "subjective" feelings/sensations/ideas, etc. Most people have no experience of the "objective" (constant and predictible) aspect of the so-called subjective, and would consider the very idea of such as being hogwash and a contradiction (like black light, cool fire, and so forth.
This is the great misconception about spirituality - that the meat of it is purely subjective, man made and brain generated, and that if you "know" otherwise, that knowing is either based on a belief or a subjective "state."
JL
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MH2
climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
could describe my climbing career
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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But, I thought DMT, And Howeird, were my sister?.....
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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One of Locker's best ever posts. Lots of substance.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies." [Thomas Jefferson]
but...what else did he say. Context, baby.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the mind of man. That is why the clergy oppose me."
Jefferson quote.
He knew that religion could kill a State....
I think a lot of you really hate religion for the wrong reasons and misinterpret what it is and how people embrace it.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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Please don't anyone clone a neanderthal just for curiosity. That would be immoral.
One day a supercomputer might recapitulate ontogeny from DNA. But start on something simple like a Republican. Kidding.
Largo, please give us reductionists a break. It was you who was into analyzing anchor set-ups after all. We may not ever "know" but we can surely figure stuff out.
A pretty good way to quiet the analytical homunculi is music. Some nice words on themes touched on in this thread from Sonny Rollins at
http://www.cbc.ca/q/uncut.html
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 12:49am PT
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Jaybro-
Your comments were the first I've heard concerning Neanderthal speech links to the Basques. Sounds like a Spanish or French joke aimed at them to me. While it's true that Basque is a linguistic isolate, there are others on the planet such as the Ainu and Bushmen languages.
These remnant languages and populations are normally very ancient. In the case of the Basque it has been hypothesized by linguists anyway, that their language might be related to the Etruscans who were wiped out by the Romans.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:05am PT
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Christians and Anti Christians-
What strikes me about this whole debate is how western and how specifically American it is. All of you would feel much differently about the topic if you had lived in non Christian countries for 30 years as I have. Truly it is refreshing to live in countries that never saw crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, wars of religion and witch burnings in the name of "truth". It gives a whole different perspective. Not many people care how strange or irrational someone's beliefs are if they are not supported by political power and missionary zeal.
Likewise, Christians really have to rethink their belief set when presenting it to a totally different culture who've never heard it before but have their own older traditions and scriptures which are equally profound. At the least, every Christian has to ask how people with the wrong set of beliefs can behave so much better on average than those with the "correct" beliefs.
In any case, the fight does not seem to be about God but always about who was "His" messenger, prophet, son, savior, guru etc. Perhaps the lesson here is to focus more on God / Universal Consciousness, and less on individual messengers and the battles of the past?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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DNA analysis of current and past Basques, and their neighbours, might reveal interesting things about their origins.
Jan, have you encountered anyone in your travels in east and south Asia who refers to Europeans as "Feringhi", or something of that sort?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:34am PT
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so JL, how do you prove your assertion true without interpreting a subjective reality?
what is it about your truth that is, in fact, truth? how does it help understand other truths?
why do you demote the subjective to something undesirable and not quite as good as objective reality? or as good as your truth?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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Come on Largo, what are you getting at?
Is there a God or not,
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Problem is that you want to "figure God out," meaning you want to "know" according to what I said earlier: break "God" down to bits you can evaluate and measure and ultimately be able to predict and replicate in a lab. This kind of knowing is invaluable in wrangling things. But God is no-thing.
The idea of "getting at" something is just that - getting at some THING our minds can squeeze for facts and figures. You don't realize that basically, you're demanding that God be a thing, like a thought or a laptop or a kermantle rope, and when God does not conform accordingly, you cry fowl and yell bullsh#t, not knowing that the approach is wrong.
Virtually any tradition will tell you that you have to use another aspect of that brain of yours that comes on line when the evaluating part quiets way, way down. But you see, few want to put in the effort to do that, they want to have "God" reveal himself in a way they can evaluate - meaning, people want to keep on trying to think or reason or calculate their way "there." Of course this will never work, and so people naturally write the whole thing off as irrational, or "faith," or a feeling or belief, yada yada.
Fact is there IS an objective side to the no-thingness of God. Most people have had some boundeary experience where they brushed up against it, but it quickly evaporates unless you have a practice to stablalize those openings. The biggest obstacle is thought itself - not that thought is THE problem, rather our attachment to it. It is exceedingly hard to hang for long in no-mind or "the cloud of unknowing" because out minds want to grind on something, and most people start feeling anxious and bored or perturbed when their compulsion for information and answers is not immediately gratified. That's why getting quiet is so hard. The evaluating mind will tell you getting quiet is a total waste of time since at first, no information is streaming in. It all feels like a blank.
But getting quiet is the start of all of it. Then you don't have to ask me for answers, you can find out for yourself. That's the whole point of it - to find out for yourself.
JL
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 18, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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"Perhaps the lesson here is to focus more on God / Universal Consciousness, and less on individual messengers and the battles of the past?"
Jan, what do you mean by God / Universal Consciousness? And in Japan how is it looked apron?
Edit; As I see it the drop is not the ocean, even though it's water.
At best are consciousness can feel at one, like with a sunset. But God is overwhelming! It's not like the ocean pours into and obliterates the drop.
God is eternal we are finite. More like love, The Song of Songs!
Christ said I AM the bridegroom and the church is the bride!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:17am PT
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JL-
Thanks for that great explanation! It's what all of us who have experienced it are trying to express, but not nearly so well.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:27am PT
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JL, I think I've done that, which is why I do what I do... it's imperfect, it's provisional, but it does ultimately lead to understanding, and even better, it defines what we don't understand.
I'm not in it for the truth, you guys can have at that, I'm happy to work on knowing how it all works is all. I don't think there is an ultimate answer, I'm not looking for that either. And there are certainly really hard problems that are going to take a long time to puzzle out, long after my work is done, so be it.
It goes together bit by bit, and I can contribute my bit... it's been roughly 500 years and it will still be going on 500 years hence.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:29am PT
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Gobee-
In the east, this analogy is given. When we dip a cup into the ocean, we can talk about my cup and my water. Once the water is poured out of the cup back into the ocean, we can no longer say what was once our contained salt water and what is the original.
The cup is like our bodies and our true original essence (image and likeness) is no different than the source, only covered up with ignorance/sin/karma which hides its true nature. If we are not sufficiently purified, then like oil, we will float upon the water and not be reabsorbed.
This is of course predicated on reincarnation and the idea that we have many chances to slowly realize our true nature.Purification goes faster with a guru/spiritual guide but we can do it ourselves also by making a direct connection.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:32am PT
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The term ferengi (several variant spellings) originated in the Middle East about 900 years ago, a corruption of the word "Frank". There's a long pre-story, but for our purposes, the peoples who first recovered southern Italy and Sicily in the late 10th and early 11th centuries, and then much more dramatically conquered much of the Holy Land/Palestine/the Levant from 1095 CE onward, were generally known as Franks. They were largely recent descendants of Vikings who'd settled in northern and western France, especially Normandy, and England.
Palestine then had a mixed population of Muslims, Jews and Christians, but the Crusades left an utterly indelible and bloody impression on the Muslims particularly. After the battle of Tours/Poitiers in 733, and the slow reconquista in Iberia, the Crusades were the first strong Christian/European reaction to the Muslim conquests that started in 632 and lasted until their last siege of Vienna in 1689. The Muslim-Christian wars from the 11th to 18th centuries were often conducted with great ferocity, especially on the Christian side - particularly the Crusades of the 12th century. It has not been forgotten. The crusader kingdoms occupied much of what is now Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria for more than a century - it wasn't a temporary thing.
First to the Muslims of the Middle East, then to all peoples there, and spreading east and south, the word Ferengi came to mean a Frank, a European - a savage bent on conquest, in the name of a savage religion. An impression that was reinforced when Portuguese, then Spanish, English and Dutch vessels found their way into the Indian Ocean from da Gama's voyage of 1497 - 98 onward, pillaging and conquering as they went. Often in the name of god, of course.
Which at length illustrates the political and military impact that Christianity has had on the peoples of south and southeast Asia. The Christians also brought with them their beliefs, as is shown by the Phillipines particularly. The peoples of the region may not have been exposed to the full force of Christian proselityzing, are numerous, and have their own well-established belief systems. But they haven't been unaffected by Christianity.
In 2001, Shrub said he wanted to conduct a crusade against the terrorists in Afghanistan, or something of the sort. Showing how little he and his advisors knew about history. The horrific negative connotations of crusades by Christian Ferengi (now including the US) against Muslims caused the term to be quickly dropped.
A later edition of Star Trek called an alien race the Ferengi, picking up on this bit of history and linguistics.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 18, 2009 - 02:42am PT
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Ed-
Spiritual people think the physical world reflects a universal Consciousness. Therefore someone seeking to understand the physical world, has chosen that path toward understanding the underlying Consciousness.
As long as you approach the enterprise with awe, wonder and gratitude for the beauty and order of it all, and are decent to your fellow human beings, that is enough. Whether you believe in a universal Consciousness or not, science is your spiritual path.
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