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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: Hate spoil the view out the window of your caboose or engine, but, whichever you've been to riding in, we clearly have a very different view out the windown of both the past and the future.
My car or whatever you want to call is very traveled and running quite strong...I seen what you call a viral infection and see it a something quite positive.
I have seen areas like the San Luis Valley that once was the domain for few and now see a well thought out system of climbs, trails, campsites and a great and beautiful outdoor experience for people to recreate.
I see friends and family enjoying the company of each other and see them interact along the trails and climbs, talking, giving beta and sitting around a campfire drinking beer and talking about what a great experience they are having. Maybe they wouldn't have been there if if wasn't for the bolted climbs and easy access...I feel good that I have done something to get folks out and enjoy a great day in a beautiful and serene setting.
Joe your views and opinions don't spoil anything me...I'll continue to contribute instead of whining...we all take our different paths...mine is just the opposite of your.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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What are the Park Rules on this?
900 posts and nobody quotes the rules, or are rock climbers above the law?
I know you need a massive ego to be a good climber, but what are the stinkin rules, help a new freak out for chrissakes?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Doug, why so little of the article was dedicated to the upper half? ...Seems it was intentional, like maybe you're not "quite" as proud of the top half?
They allowed me 6000 words. Twice normal, or more. I wrote 7000+. Some stuff about the upper wall was in the thousand words cut. Also I used a lot of my words doing the entire history of the "backside." So little was known, so little written, bunch of original interviews. That stuff is fascinating. I wanted to give Karma and especially Southern Belle their due. They are so amazing. Now it's all in one place. Growing Up is in context.
I don't feel like I said all that much about the actual climbing, top or bottom. The photos do so much of that. I'd rather look at them than hear myself or anyone blab on about "left foot, right foot." I mean, that's exactly the stuff that bores me so much in the bar, ya know?
More directly to your unstated question: I don't feel as good about the top half as the bottom half. As I keep saying, we compromised. We had reasons, carefully thought out for weeks, which I've been trying to say more about here. To us they were good ones. To some of you, not.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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DR,
Thank you for the response. That makes sense to me.
Such a straight answer, I'm impressed.
They're hard to come by here in the box sometimes!
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jstan
climber
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From what I have observed:
Ghoulweij has attempted to set the rule that Canadiens don't count. You are free to follow that rule or not, as you feel is appropriate.
You are also free to disregard the usual rules for civil discourse, depending upon what you hope to accomplish.
If you have nothing you wish to accomplish, that too may be contributed.
These rules are pretty strict, but hey. That's life.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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So when will the route be chopped?
Juan
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Ok, this is the final answer, if, in thirty years from now, when all your joints and tendons ache from years of use, what will you think about bolting the South Wall?
With maturity, comes knowledge, and knowledge replaces fear, the basic premise of all rock climbing.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Over the course of my climbing career I have gone from Rabidly ANTI bolt to rabidly ground up ONLY to Sport is pretty cool as long as it stays in Rumny to whatever makes the best rout . I still prefer ground up for most of my own projects and will honor the local ethic. I do however appreciate a good rout regardless of weather it was ground up or top down. Tolerance is a good thing. Maby I am growing up a bit????
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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DR,
This is where we simply disagree. I personally see no need for stone or climbing to bear the endless burden of the ills of our growing population. It wouldn't be nearly the problem for me if there wasn't a relentless, consumptive march of wholly bolt-dependent climbing. It's a fundamental divide for me when someone's climbing isn't even possible unless entire lines of stone have steel installed to accomodate it.
I'd be the last to say there was no place for sport climbing, but the reality of what it has turned into 25 years later I find untenable. And as this train picks up speed it continously redefines climbing, wringing ever more risk out of it at every stop to invite more 'climbers' onboard. It is in no way a sustainable activity and when the last bolt within easy driving range has been drilled, they will be coming back around to in-fill no differently than in the development of housing in crowded inner cities. Both via ferratas and retrobolting will be on the agenda sooner than later as more and more people cry that 'elitists' shouldn't be allowed to dominate the stone or set the standards for all.
The trad crag where I climb would be in-filled and consumed in a two or three of short years left unconstrained. And I have zero faith in climbers' ability to self-regulate at this point and this is borne out by the fact that bolting is only restrained at those venues under private ownership or active management by public land managers. Everywhere else drills are going off. Again, I'm not elitist, I'm just plain selfish, and I make no bones about it. I'd have no problem 'sharing' whatsoever if sharing didn't require the installation of a line of steel to effect it, and if 'sharing' didn't continuously redefine the very thing we're sharing.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRP!
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Austin, Texas
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But what does Peter Gabriel think?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Do we get the number of bolts used on GU before 1000 posts--I hope so, for posterity's sake.
Does it matter ?
50 compared to 400 may change a few opinions.
I'm going out on a small limb here and saying that the NPS (currently) has no rules against the amount of bolts placed by hand on any given route/crag/area.
Let's hope that Bill Gates isn't reading this, and hires 50 hammer-monkeys to grid-bolt the upper half of SFHD--legal, fair, and done for the future of climbing, hehe.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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"And the problems it creates, the lines at Nutcracker and the tape wadded up in cracks and the trampeled flowers at the base are pretty easy to solve compared to the horrendous problems facing civilization itself that the point of view created and nurtured through climbing will be helping to solve."
Is anybody really listening to this guy ?? I know this whole thread is highly emotional. I also know that both sides are, to some degree, arguing their point based on what is the best for the "future". On this thread, I have watched Doug Robinson reflect, divulge inner thoughts and feelings, attempt to justify his actions, become depressed, and continue to participate in an open and honest fashion. Can't say that about those who wish to condemn based on what I perceive as an ethic or style that applies to two percent of the climbing population. You know what, this climb may be a "botch" job. But, I will never know
because I'm among the "unwashed" masses that make up the climbing population. I may never see, let alone visit, Growing Up. Soo, as this thread approaches 1000 posts, which I think is inherently good, I will side with integrity, and an honest attempt to speak to the greater good. Damit!! Doug Robinson for President !!!!!
Cracko
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Irrelevant argument, Dr Troll. I Have been climbing for well over thirty years, and I have many of those joint pains. And that really doesnt enter into my own decision about what I think of that route;that all-in-all, it wasnt a very good ides.
People make mistakes, especially under the heat of adrenaline. Its not like they are bad people or anything.
I see it as a failed experiment, learn from it, and move on.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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This is the exact same campfire argument at Camp 4 that Robbins and Harding had 40+ yrs ago is it not?
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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An honest question: how many of the posters here could lead the (unbolted) 8 pitches of 5.12 crack climbing the route begins with?
I think there is a lot of hype involved in characterizing this as a sport route. I don't really believe in the whole sport climbing trip, but I also know that I have never had the capability to really lead an 8 pitch, 5.12 crack climb.
Just an observation, really.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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I forgot where Warren H was a top downer. He was pretty darn bold, kind of the opposite situation, so no, it's a different squabble.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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I don't know Jaybro, I don't see where putting a rivet ladder up something is all that bold. Given enough time, anyone can do that, and do a lot more damage to the rock.
I've got a lot of respect for Harding, as I do for DR. But while Warren did was different, I don't know if it was ethically better, or in my mind, stylistically better.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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This you may not heard about, because it involves two sports, kayaking, and technical climbing.
For all you non kayaker/climber types, we had the same prestiege system as you climbers, first decents of rad rivers in the Sierra, from ex climbers who thought:
"Why the hell are we risking our lives on this sweltering slab, when we could be down there, on that beautiful river, at least when you drown, you don't have 8 seconds of free fall involved, so Holbek, Robbins, Stanley, switched over to kayaking, but they still had their rock climbing skills, so they used their fancy rope work to gain first decents, Grand Canyon of the T, Middle Fork Kings from Junction Meadows, rad sh#t, so when Royal and Reg Lake and the gang set pro for their first descent, Lars and Company removed it during the repeat!
So when the guys went back, they almost got stuck!
Has this ever happened in the climbing world, jus curious.
If interested, I can post the list of First Decents from Robbins, I bet a lot of you do not realize his impact in the sport of Kayaking, what say?
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Want to elaborate on my previous post. Clearly, I am approaching this whole debate focusing on the individual and not the merits of the "ethical" or "stylistic" debate which, quite frankly, escapes me due to it being so relative. I have been climbing for 35+ years, most of which I have also been involved in education. I have always been interested in helping kids reach their full potential by exposing them to different challenges which helps them develop strong self concepts and self-reliance. During my 25+ years in education, I have attempted to contact many "climber" types to work with kids in a school setting. In that 25 years, two people have actually been willing to do so......Mark Wellman and Doug Robinson, and they both did outstanding jobs. Climbing to me, outside of the personal challenge, is a vehicle to make sense of the world we live in and our part in it. Most great athletes will tell you that until they found a way to give back to society, their personal successes were somewhat meaningless. Doug Robinson has attempted to articulate this side of our "sport", but I fear it has fallen upon deaf ears. Why can't the climbing community embrace this concept of social responsibility ????
Cracko
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