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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Ditto,mtnyoung. Philo can not see through his own rage, that there have been terrible crimes committed by both sides against each other.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Well start reciting youth.
The credentials of my knowledge base have been well explained.
Your turn.
Start by comparing the death totals from violence on both sides.
See how those scales don't level out.
Be careful and diligent though as the message has been manipulated and controlled by one side all along.
Until now that is.
"Ditto,mtnyoung. Philo can not see through his own rage, that there have been terrible crimes committed by both sides against each other".
Another steaming pile Chris2!
Those on ST forum that are advocating on behalf of Palestinian human rights have never denied nor made light of the evils perpetrated by the "OTHER" side.
Neither have we advocated for the destruction of the State of Israel or the annihilation of the Jews.
We have however been explaining the reasons for the intractability of Palestinian resistance. History will not be kind to the Zionist experiment.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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"Well start reciting youth."
Philo, are you referring to me? Thanks, if so. Actually, I'm not that young (I'm 48 now). Young is my last name.
And, no, I'm not going to start reciting history. I have clients waiting and I must go for now. Suffice it to say I could catalog murder and atrocities (and love and reaching out too, on occasion) by both sides. But doing so would add nothing here.
And if the Arab people have suffered more deaths than the Jewish people from these 60 years, what does that mean? Only that they may not be as good at war. Not that they are not equally at fault.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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“Until now that is?”
Philo, so you think all of your post on this lame named thread, are the voice of the Palestinians and are going to create some sort of change?
I thought you were just ranting.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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"And if the Arab people have suffered more deaths than the Jewish people from these 60 years, what does that mean?"
How about billions of unregulated US tax dollars and unwavering US support for one side only as a starting point.
"Only that they may not be as good at war."
Wow does that speak for it's self!
"Not that they are not equally at fault."
You are right they are not equally at fault.
Who stole who's land?
Who perpetrated the mass expulsion of Arabs
creating a Diaspora People?
Who subjugated, occupied and abused the other?
Who continues on a daily basis to confiscate more land
and progressively imprison the other?
Who can not walk from their homes to
their fields with out the humiliation and intimidation
of check points, shakedowns and random arrest?
Who have been bulldozed alive in their own homes?
Who have been rounded up in mass arrests and
numbered with a sharpie markers?
(more humane than branding I will give them that)
You are right they are not equally at fault!
“Until now that is?”
Philo, so you think all of your post on this lame named thread, are the voice of the Palestinians and are going to create some sort of change?
I thought you were just ranting.
No Chris2 I meant that 21st century electronic capacity make it almost immpossible for Israel to hide the truth.
Though more patriotic Americans like myself who choose to not remain silent is also having a powerful effect.
I meant that we no longer hear only one side.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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Do you need to have the meaning of JDL explained to you? Because it doesn't stand for Jesus Does Love.
I suppose you will try and tell us that the Arab boy in this picture scrawled that vile and retched hate on the wall as propaganda to make Jews look bad.
What ever happened to "NEVER AGAIN"?
I though it was supposed to mean for all humanity.
Or maybe you will want say that what the graphiti artist really meant to write was "Gap" the Arabs. And that the magnanimous Jews plan on giving every Gazan survivor a new pair of designer blue jeans as recompense for slaughtering their children.
Some of you flail around saying that I have been posting hurtfull inflammatory things. Oh really, when and where? I know the truth hurts sometimes and can be hard to swallow. A few of you however have posted very hateful rhetorical comments.
But I challenge all of you to find anything I have posted or pasted that is as bad as you want to say it is. Rather I suspect you don't like and can't assail the message so you maturely turn to attacking the messenger.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Then Jeff why are there still so many living in freedom in Arab and Persian countries today?
The Jews in Iran are not as a matter of policy or practice harassed and abused.
In fact the Jordanian authorities recently protected the Israeli consul building from a mass protest of Jews against the war in Gaza.
One of the largest populations of Jews is in Morocco.
These days I see Israeli ambassadors being expelled but given the slaughter in Gaza why do you suppose we don't see mass expulsions of Jews from Arab nations?
Who are the truly intolerant anti-semites in this in-equal equation?
You guys are obviously running out of ammo. Better have AIPAC tunnel you in some more. Or maybe Condi can airlift more munitions to you.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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Fattrad: "What you fail to mention that more Jews were expelled from Arab countries than all of the Palestinians combined."
Philo: "Then Jeff why are there still so many living in freedom in Arab and Persian countries today?"
There are still a few Jews living in Arab and Persian countries for the same reasons that there are still some Palestinians living in Israel. Not everyone was forced to (or chose to) leave, but the majority were.
Jewish exodus from Arab lands
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. According to official Arab statistics, 856,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s. Some 600,000 resettled in Israel. Their descendants, and those of Iranian and Turkish Jews, now number 3.06 million of Israel's 5.4 to 5.8 million Jewish citizens. [1][not in citation given] The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[2][3] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel). [1][3]
Reasons for emigration
While violence and discrimination against Jews in Arab countries started to increase several years before 1948, it escalated significantly starting in 1948 despite the fact that Jews were indigenous and for the most part held Arab citizenship. Sometimes the process was state sanctioned; at other times it was the consequence of anti-Jewish resentment by non-Jews. Harassment, persecution and the confiscation of property followed. Secondly and in response to mistreatment of Jews in these countries, a Zionist drive for Jewish immigration from Arab lands to Israel intensified. The great majority of Jews in Arab lands eventually emigrated to the modern State of Israel.[4] Activist groups such as JJAC and JIMENA claim that there was a collusion among Arab states to persecute Jews as part of their struggle against Israel.[5]
The process grew apace as Arab nations under French, British and Italian colonial rule or protection gained independence. Further, anti-Jewish sentiment within the Arab-majority states was exacerbated by the Arab-Israeli wars. Within a few years after the Six Day War (1967) there were only remnants of Jewish communities left in most Arab lands. Jews in Arab lands were reduced from more than 800,000 in 1948 to perhaps 16,000 in 1991.[4]
Some claim that the Jewish exodus from Arab lands is a historical parallel to the Palestinian exodus during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, while others reject this comparison as simplistic.[6]
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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MYTH
“Jews who lived in Islamic countries were well-treated by the Arabs.”
FACT
While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs. As Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis has written: "The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam."22
Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.23
The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97-98).
Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews. In the ninth century, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.24
At various times, Jews in Muslim lands lived in relative peace and thrived culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death.
When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.
Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.25
Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.26
Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).27
The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.28
As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.29
The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world."30
More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.31 This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Philo likes Einstein. Here is an Einstein quote.
"We Jews are everywhere subject to attacks and humiliations that result from the exaggeration of nationalism and racial vanity, which, in most European countries, expresses itself in the form of aggressive anti-Semitism.
The Jewish national home is not a luxury but an absolute necessity for the Jewish people. Therefore the reply of the Jews to the present difficulties must be a determination to redouble their efforts in Palestine."
Albert Einstein
NYT Dec 3, 1930 Cited in Denis Brian pg 202-203
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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I did not say they were not expelled. I know they were. It is not justification. Rather I asked why do the ones who remained in Arab countries live without extreme harassment ? Why are they not expelled now?
Ron Paul addresses Congress regarding Hamas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPwNk0CJSiY&NR=1
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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When I lived in Morocco I saw more Sephardic Jews walking about shopping and doing their daily business than I do when I go to Denver or Chicago. And I was living there during the Iran Hostage crisis. A fairly tense time in world affairs. I saw no animosity against the Jews then. Why do you suppose that was?
It's is funny but the Embassy told us all that in the event of a related emergency we were to go to the largest most western hotel we could find and await evacuation. Like yeah that's just what I wanted to do. Fools.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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Keep at it Philo. Heh, "The South Shall Rise Again."
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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Jeff you can't even correctly spell the country's name and you know even less about it's history.
Go watch more movies FOOL!
May I suggest the Wind in the Willows.
Then you can tell us all about life for animals.
GC I didn't say I wanted him on my side I just admired his courage in this instance.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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Philo, here's your start to a long rant above (which starts by quoting me):
"'Not that they are not equally at fault.' You are right they are not equally at fault. Who stole who's land?"
Thank you, you've made me see a truth here. Here's the truth. Philo hates. Like too many Gazans and too many Israelis alike, Philo hates and won't let go. All that matters is that the other side is at fault; they are evil. Peace? Sure he'll talk the talk. But if it requires him to stop hating, to stop blaming, to stop villifying the other side, and maybe, perhaps to find some fault with the side that he identifies with, well the walk ain't ever gonna match the talk.
Philo, you're a hating fool. You are the reason there won't be peace in the Middle East. You and the fact that there are too many Palestinians and too many Israelis that think just like you do. There isn't a lick of difference between you (personally) and the IDF soldiers you find so repulsive.
You're simply not worth engaging anymore. Good luck to you in the future. I hope you can let go and find peace. I hope the people in the Middle East can do the same.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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"Philo, you're a hating fool. You are the reason there won't be peace in the Middle East. You and the fact that there are too many Palestinians and too many Israelis that think just like you do. There isn't a lick of difference between you (personally) and the IDF soldiers you find so repulsive".
Pull-ease. How ignorant are you?
3,2,1,C ya
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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"I've often cited Morroco as a wonderful Islamic country, of course we (US) put the current rulers on the throne."
You might want to re-check your info Jeff.
Ignorance married with arrogance will be your downfall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Mohammed_VI
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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The current dynasty took possession of the throne in the mid 17th century. They had a legitimate claim as direct descendants of Muhammad and Fatima.
America was a big player in world politics then huh DaftRat.
Jeff has never been one to let the messiness of truth get in his way.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
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Fat not only can't spell, but gets his facts wrong?! No way.
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