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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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Western Climber,
Thanks for the kudos, but I don't know if I deserve it as I feel I am just shaking a couple Bulldogs off my leg here.
Moving on in this thread is not only noble it's essential if it isn't going to just descend further into defensive, contentious noodling and habitual contrarian tactics disguised as counterpoint. In short I feel as if I'm having stances projected upon me which I don't even own. Yes dialectic serves understanding but it's not the only way.
(Not to say Warbler shouldn't get his answer from Patrick, but then we need to move on or simply stop)
To your point Western Climber, in italics below:
So, hopefully with moving forward in mind, how do we proceed in preserving the trad legacy?
Frankly I don't know that we can preserve anything. Times change and people do what they want with the histories which they may or may not seek to understand. As I said earlier: If modern climbers, through some slow accretion of various tactics want to change the face of trad and completely redefine the term, then of course we can't change that here.
Alpinist magazine seems to be the best repository for critical enhancement of these historical perspectives and their potential usefulness to current generations. So perhaps published pieces might achieve what you would like to see; but the question remains just who is reading them? Are they preaching to the choir of a bygone era or are young climbers, albeit in small numbers, absorbing this stuff?
To answer the latter I believe they are, albeit in very small numbers and I cited examples here. I run into young kids that are all about classic rock 'n roll. Renaissance happens; usually with a new twist as things are reinvented in a current vernacular. If there's anything which Patrick Compton is trying to hoist here it's this and frankly I don't disagree with him.
But how do we preserve valid historical distinctions, terms, focuses and the value they represent to the future? I would say through accurate histories and documentation, through elaborate exposition as I've tried to present here in many of my posts. People like Peter Haan are working diligently to represent the nature of the romantic conjecture as it envelops the notion that risk is of value.
I would submit that this creed, essentially the notion that adventure is worth dying for, is something that only perhaps 10% of any particular population of active people can possibly appeal to. Probably less! Those of us that hear the call simply must heed it. That's a paraphrase of Peter Haan. Evangelizing does not serve our inner purpose.
If you look at auto racing, the heroes of bygone eras and there particular struggles and tactics are revered. Plain and simple. Auto racing is blood sport: people burn to death in pursuit of that passion and they are revered by those who understand. The reason it is difficult for the climbing community is because much of what moves forward for us is simply expressed within the confines of the oral tradition and I don't believe that lasts much longer than 15 or 20 years when speaking of mainstream absorption.
Another reason it is difficult for us is that we went through this huge trad versus sport turmoil in the mid-1980s and people are still coming out of left field with preconceived notions of conflict based on all this old stuff. So never mind that young people don't even know upon whose shoulders they stand, there are still those among us who are defensive and reticent in regards to preserving the basic nature of what trad is and does.
So how's that for identifying the challenge and specifically stating that it's probably going to best be served in print media, also a dying breed by the way, but it is likely there where our hopes may lie in pursuit of preserving anything at all. I say this because of its inherent permanence. The blogosphere is throwaway, dynamic but throwaway.
In the end it's only in the hands of the members of any future generations who understand that studying the past is a vital component in understanding where they are, how they got there, and likewise in intelligently and creatively modeling their future trajectory. To paraphrase Brandon Pullan, Alpinist 42, Homage, "To learn to climb here, [Yamnuska ] I needed to turn to the elders … History wasn't just a lesson about the past but a means to create the future."
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 27, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
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I saw elements of what could be called "trad" in play at the local outcrop/bouldering moss pile in Bellingham yesterday. Two locals, both recovering from snowboard injuries were getting their first rock time in for the season while top-roping. The were carefully avoiding the decades old chopped holds and repeatedly not topping out because they had chosen to make the climb harder. They are learning how to climb harder stuff but refused to compromise on what they had determined to be "good style."
Maintaining one's idea of style might fit into the trad matrix.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Apr 27, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 07:34am PT
GotBoay said:
just go climbing and leave the emo semantics to the historians.
This statement is also clearly coming from someone who's not following, because a lot of what is being discussed are the merits pitted against the losses when common usage shifts radically over time.
I've been leading and following this topic for decades.
You're the one with the case to prove, counselor.
Show me the environmental damage done by backcountry skiing or surfing a wave then you can start making a case that high art trad climbing is superior of moving over the ground/wave/snow lightly.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 27, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
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Warbler,
Yes, aside from some examples and details, that is about right. I never said I have THE definition, but that I have helped the defining as more than a troll, which Tar thinks I am at this point.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Apr 27, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
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Tar,
"Teach us to care and not to care"
Ofcourse we all have the option to climb how we see fit and this all could be meaningless fodder for the blogosphere. But that's just it. The human condition of caring.
Ethics, style, laws are all products the consensus of the times. Current trends may ofcourse render all this moot but history certainly helped to inform it. "Nothing new under the sun". And obviously the popularity of this thread shows there is something cared about and relevent enough to preserve.
Goatboy: You seem to be following along and I agree with your take on the environment but it was touched on and agreed, I believe that all climbing impacts the environment. But one of my edits went to the point thet trad was born of a time when grass roots environmentalism was at a high point, at least in this country's history. And that man has the right to trod as does any creature. What semed like a good point to move the thread ahead was on just how man might leave less impact without entering into style wars which seems to keep re-occuring, but still maintaining the integrity of the OP and it's place in further discussion. I think it's been discussed that trad is a one thing (as advocated by Tar and Warbler) and what Patrick is adocating is something different (perhaps "adventure climbing"). Any further discussion of style seems to be off point.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
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Goat boy's perspective on my "position".
You're the one with the case to prove, counselor.
Show me the environmental damage done by backcountry skiing or surfing a wave then you can start making a case that high art trad climbing is superior of moving over the ground/wave/snow lightly.
I never said anything about high art trad being superior to those things or even other forms of climbing. You're projecting that onto me, I never proposed any such thing, and if you'd read what I've been saying it's all kinds of different things about trad climbing; to include responses in regard to what others have said on a variety of related sub topics but not that which you just asribed to me.
You've completely lost me here Goat Boy.
Yes Patrick, you're entitled to an opinion. But you keep working this angle about the current definition of trad and I don't really care, because I agree with Warbler that it's pretty hard to present a conclusive survey one way or the other about general usage the country over. I've said this many times: I don't have a hard and fast opinion about it.
Simply reading a title of a huge thread and hammering on some specific related to the title just doesn't get it in productive conversation. This is why it feels like trolling. It's circular.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
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Thank you Western Climber for trying to make some sense of the mess this thread has become.
I'd say our little boat has run aground.
Thanks everyone for your efforts!
Lots of stimulating and fun stuff has come up, but once again, as I noted some couple hundred posts back, we are beginning to rehash ground which has already been covered and in great detail.
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pocoloco1
Social climber
The Chihuahua Desert
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Apr 27, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
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"What is Trad"????????
sans les boulons
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
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Hahahahaha!
Nice.
sans les boulons = "a system featuring no bolt and no tool assembly"
In terms of basic vector, yes!
In divining the practical application, we could have a 1000 post thread on this.
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pocoloco1
Social climber
The Chihuahua Desert
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Apr 27, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
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Picasso was an artist.. n’est ce pas? Are people who copy his work artist?
“An artist is a person engaged in one or more of any of a broad spectrum of activities related to creating art, practicing the arts, and/or demonstrating an art.”
It’s an outlook..imho
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
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Thank you PocoLoco!
And there need not be anything elitist about it; the seeker must heed the call and that's all there is to it.
Yes it's worth describing it and we've tried.
Apologies for any ruffled feathers but there it is.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
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And GoatBoy,
If you have actually read all of what I have offered in this thread and your take away is as you've stated in the grouping of posts which you've made in the last several pages, then my communication skills are sorely remiss and I have failed you.
Furthermore, we've actually roped up!
This means you are a treasured climbing partner and you know intimately my approach out in the woods on rock. I'm very surprised that you see me as essentially an acerbic posturer.
I really do try to engender constructive and humorous interaction on the forum. You know I have started over 100 threads, 90% of which are climbing related? And few of which, until now frankly, have had any entrenched controversy on them whatsoever?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 27, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
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Monsieur Tarbussier, fear not for your literary legacy - you have few equals, even if measured only by sincerity.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
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I would imagine he was going for poetic license there Kevin.
Which is why I signed off on it, on the spirit of the French phrase so quoted, by feeding a lot of rope in PocoLoco's direction as it were, in addressing the vector as opposed to the literal interpretation.
All one needs to do is go to Suicide Rock in Southern California and witness a healthy legacy of ground up bolting tradition.
I certainly agree with you and as well I think we both know it's about minimizing additional artifice as much as possible.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
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Cheers Kevin,
Not to be so proprietary about this overall effort; but I much appreciate your candor, experience, and wisdom and your diligent application of these well-hewn gifts toward the goal of this thread!
Beer 30 over here!
Rock on hard guys and gals.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Apr 27, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
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I think Dingus McGee would be happier if we were all to Trad Lightly.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 27, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
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I think you've got your finger on the pulse of history, Kevin!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Apr 27, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
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A competent trad leader is relatively comfortable on many different types of terrain, or wishes to be competent at as many as interest him, be it desert stone, ice, or granite.
Traditions exist in all forms of climbing, and the norm for one form may be different from the norms for others.
Aside to Warbler, I can't KWorral with your delivery. You've spoken with your climbing well enough to make your points carry weight.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
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Here's an article by Tommy Caldwell which highlights just how confusing definitions have become.
At the same time it highlights some really brutal, harrowing ground-up climbing styles being practiced in Switzerland.
http://www.sportiva.com/live/live-archive/climbing-archive/tommy-caldwell-sport-climbing-is-neither
Please don't misinterpret this post as any kind of denigration of Caldwell or Sport Climbing!
I'm saying a couple of things here. One: that he conflates bolts per se with sport climbing.
Two: that he's chronicling some really gnarly ground-up goings-on in the world of bolting.
I remember seeing Caldwell nail a 13 minus in the gym some 20 years ago when he barely fit his own ears!
There was no doubt in my mind a new champion was afoot!
I'm surprised that he equates bolts per se with sport climbing only.
Perhaps I shouldn't have to say this; but please read the full article before commenting on it!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 28, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
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I've already argued that trad climbing includes risk as one of its essential ingredients; perhaps two corollaries to this are (1) the preservation of uncertainty, and (2) not only an insistence on climbing on natural features, but also an insistence on having nature determine the protection opportunities. It was never about bolts vs. gear, as Warbler has already emphasized, but when bolts are involved it is very much about how they are placed.
It was a simpler world when the demands of trad climbing excluded any form of aid for progress or for obtaining protection. Incredibly bold leads were done in which the climber started up a steep but less than vertical face with a drill in his or her pocket and no guarantee that it would be possible to find stances to drill from. I honestly think some of the ground up bolt-protected leads in the country are the most trad of all trad climbs. It is true that repeating these routes cannot involve the same level of uncertainty faced by the first-ascent party, but it is still true that all subsequent ascents have to deal with the protection nature grudgingly allowed the first-ascent party to place.
Of course, climbers have kept and will always keep upping the difficulty levels, and it was inevitable that a trad style for bolting vertical and overhanging faces, where hands-off stances are simply unavailable, would have to evolve, and that the old rules would have to be bent, as every successive generation does in the pursuit of difficulty.
While giving up on the strict avoidance of aid, climbers, in my opinion, preserved virtually all of the genre's respect for intrinsic risk and uncertainty by allowing aid from hooks for the placement of bolts on the lead. In terms of challenge, uncertainty, and natural risk, there is nothing less adventurous about a modern leader heading up a steep face with a drill and a few hooks, still with no guarantee that it will be possible to find hook placements to drill from and so still fully in the debt of nature for providing protection opportunities.
I think this form of climbing is well within any reasonable definition of modern trad, and indeed is much more in the trad spirit than, say, redpointing a steep crack after placing the "trad gear" on aid or on rappel, which is "gear climbing" but only trad climbing in the most superficial sense.
The Sierra Club failed miserably sixty years ago with a classification system that purported to classify the difficulty of a climb by the equipment climbers used on it. In view of that failure, it is ironic to see the same idea surface again in a definition of trad climbing that attempts to reference little more than the gear employed.
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