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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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No, it's that the existing users of the park - 100,000 or so hiker days, maybe 50,000 or more climber days, plus others - are being treated as though the park is terra nullius. They for the most part haven't been asked what they think of the proposal. It wouldn't be hard to set up a booth at the campground, with objective information, B.C. Parks staff on hand to discuss what is proposed, and for the actual current users to say their piece. Better still, a booth at the perched rock 2/3 of the way up, or even at the top, where they could see where the gondola and top station would be.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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At least this is a new argument, unlike anything we've heard before...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Arguably the park isn't a tabula rasa, although the gondola would go through a zone that is untouched, and under-represented in B.C.'s park system. Coastal Western Hemlock Dry something or other.
Should proposals to develop in or near provincial parks - especially carefully-considered, well-established, heavily-used parks - be considered on the same basis as proposals to develop any other public land, or should they be a rare exception, subject to considerably increased scrutiny? Some of you seem to be arguing that it's simply vacant land, open to the first development that comes along. It isn't. And the proposal doesn't even come close to complying with the government's own policy for scrutinizing such proposals.
(Nothing like throwing in a bit of pig Latin, eh? Though I learned it when studying history.)
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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It is interesting to read the various numbers of people signing petitions but I'm holding pretty firm on the 90-95% "for" tallies. Looking down the road, or lift line, I would be generous and go with the 90% "for", just to be safe.
If there are 4.4 million people in the province then I'm thinking there are around 440,000 opposed, give or take. I'm sure that given enough time, M.H. will gather those signatures but strangely enough it will still only represent 10%.
I promise I'm not seining, or trolling, but what does one do with only ten percent?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Petitions, and FaceBook sites, and letters writing campaigns, are all part of the process. Same with allies, influential friends, and prominent supporters. As the Bear says, it's all politics. But when you add that to a flawed process that isn't even close to complying with government policy, and a proposal that seems half-baked, it gives the government more reason to do what's necessary. Their problem now may well be backing down, without losing too much face. (OK, the Liberals may not have a lot of face to lose, any more - BK is working on that.)
I suspect that for those residents of Squamish who are moderately informed of the proposal and process, most have concerns about either or both, but don't lean much one way or the other. Maybe 5 - 10% have strong views one way or the other. But 800+ signing to indicate that they're opposed, including 100 or more in Squamish, is rather more than the proponents can claim. Not that it's local to just Squamish.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Part of the decision-making process is public opinion, whether informed, uninformed, right, or wrong. And news media coverage - ditto.
In this case, the rule of law is also a real issue. Some seem to believe that the government can disregard its own laws and policies, just because it's convenient to do so. A lot of people have died since Magna Carta in 1215, in defence of the rule of law. It's a pillar of our democracy. As to who ultimately is responsible for a badly flawed process, it's the government. Maybe aided and abetted by others - who knows?
Whether there's one person objecting, or 50,000, the government has to play by its own rules (legislation, policy). It hasn't been. No real review or analysis of alternatives - although we hear that one of the proponent's drawings was of a route from the gravel pit, to the top of Shannon Falls, and then over to Goat Ridge (!). Kind of confirms what their real agenda is, eh? No independent review by B.C. Parks, of the merits and of whether the proposal meets the policy. No independent public meetings (Squamish, Vancouver, on the Chief, internet) to present information and analysis, and request opinion.
Maybe the issue now for the governments is how to salvage a botched process, and who gets the blame.
There's all sorts of non-compliance with the policy. Should I provide chapter and verse again?
Anyway, aren't you and HF too cheap to take a gondola? I mean, $30 is the gossiped about but undocumented price for the gondola. Let's say that in reality it's $40, plus another $10 for a bike, plus tax. I'll be generous, and assume that "locals" get $10 off - although I'm a local, too. Neither of you is going to pay $40, or $30, or even $20, for the ride, when you can drive part way up the back and ride for half an hour to get to it. Who would?
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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I'll pay that if it translates into a six or seven hour bikeride, no problema, Emma. Then I just have to pedal back from Britannia to the gravel pit to retrieve my vehicle. I don't want to ride in from the logging road and I'm still not too sure about that half hour estimate.
Besides, a coffee and a scone for ten bucks at the top will be a great way to start the ride,Clyde.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Even @ $30 it doesn't sound like a very good deal when this is 35 min away & costs
$45.95 for a day pass, $38.95 for seniors & $21.95 for kids. A very competitive rate I would
say. WB can get away with running their world record breaking sightseeing operation at these costs because it is being piggybacked by $50 a day bike park passes which do not even use the same lifts.
BREAKING WORLD RECORDS.CONNECTING MOUNTAINS.
Spanning the distance between Whistler and Blackcomb Mountains, the new world record-breaking PEAK 2 PEAK Gondola is a breathtaking, 4.4-kilometre journey to infinite possibilities. Redefining the Whistler summer experience by creating limitless new ways to get up-close-and-personal with the mountains, this engineering marvel breaks three world records.
Longest unsupported span of 3.024 kilometres
Highest lift of its kind at 436 metres above the valley floor
Completes the longest continuous lift system on the globe
Your Sightseeing Ticket Includes:
A ride up the Whistler Village Gondola which is located at the base of Whistler Mountain in Whistler Village. From there you'll have access to the PEAK 2 PEAK Gondola which connects you between Whistler and Blackcomb Mountains. Your ticket includes unlimited crossings on the PEAK 2 PEAK Gondola for the day.
To re-iterate what I have already said, why would u want to compete with that. What stats & pitch could seatosky gondy possibly have that would make people think its a worthy stop en route to the holy grail of sightseeing packages??
Hey Bruce what's your take on the potential issue of taxpayers and/or parks dealing with a failed gondola? Seems like an area of this debate we haven't messed with too much but could very well be a reality at some point. Especially if we are just "lending" these guys the land. Seems as though it would be easy enough for them to just say "here's your land back, we don't want it anymore." thoughts??
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Neither of you is going to pay $40, or $30, or even $20, for the ride, when you can drive part way up the back and ride for half an hour to get to it. Who would?
Let me take a shot at that question:
First, the assumption underlying your idea is false. Driving up the back is not free. Riding the half hour isn't free.
Driving up the back has a cost. It requires a vehicle capable of dealing with a road not always in good shape, on top of which there is the gas ($$$ plus environmental impact) and the incremental maintenance costs. Driving up the back also has a time cost.
Likewise, riding from wherever the car has to be parked to the upper terminus has a time cost. Maybe your available time is endless, or not worth much, but that's not true for a lot of people.
And on top of both of those things, your car is way the f*#k up that road when the day is over for your friends who rode up on the gondola. If your plan is to ride from the upper terminus to, say, Britannia Beach, how are you going to get your car back?
Again, this isn't an argument for a gondala. That's a different subject. This is an argument against lame arguments.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The Habrich road is currently reported as driveable - two wheel drive - to where it has been blocked by boulders for the last 20 years, at about 700 m. (That's further/higher than for some time - see upthread for details, reported by others.) Probably about the same point at which it would be gated by the proponents - who would have to grade the road every spring, to move supplies and materials in and out. Most likely starting late this summer, that being when they want to start building. The road would be driveable, the only question being how far it would be to the gate.
So you'd have to drive say 5 km up a decently graded road, likely driveable for most vehicles owned by mountain bikers. Maybe 15 minutes, plus say $1.00/km for the theoretical cost of the vehicle that you already have so all you really have to pay is the running cost, which is more like $0.25/km, times two for the return trip. As opposed to say $30 or $40 for the gondola, plus waiting in line, plus maybe it doesn't run as early or late as you'd like plus...
Of course, maybe they'd gate it near the bottom, for "public safety" or "to protect the watershed" - that is, to have a captive market and protect their assets.
Not that it's only about economics.
Fish in a gondola I tell you, fish in a gondola.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Just running low on ammo., that's all.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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So, you guys ever go to any of the proponent's infomercials? Did they make a to do about how their Squamish roots, and how they plan to run the gondola until they retire, and turn it over to their children? Just curious.
(BTW, several FOSC committee members did go to infomercials, and talk with the proponents then and at other times.)
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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I'm not sure if I'm cheap or not. I'll have to ask my beautiful wife; just a minute.
No, not cheap. Phew
I know I've stated this tid-bit before, but let's not forget it's $200/head to bike Goat Ridge via the A-star.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Bruce, what do you have against holding the BC government responsible for following the process clearly stated in its policy and regulations. If that had been done, all of the questions seen here, supportive, neutral, or against, along with many other questions none of us knuckle dragging climbers have even mentioned would have been addressed. A good process doesn't depend on the good will driven transparency of the developer (notably absent in this deal) but examines the questions publicly in an impartial setting and delivers answers. As BC surges in population there will be a greater and greater need for transparent public vetting of all sorts of projects. The blueprints for such a process exists but they appear to be covered in dust somewhere in Victoria and the local government halls.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Bruce, what you consider a red herring may be considered a legitimate issue to others...
... public process sorts these out without resorting to courts in the early stages of a deal like this gondola proposal.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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I think it's safe to say that if more information was provided by the developers as to their actual plans & the responsibilities they are willing to accept for using public land(regardless of how much or where it is) & the process was done by the book, in a just, legal fashion(we should all be able to agree at this point that there is an obvious discrepancy here) through BC parks & the appropriate Govt sectors then we wouldn't All be stuck here measuring our ideals & reasonings which are largely figments of our own imaginations.
Bruce- how do you know that there is no environmental impacts? Have you done a scientific assessment? Have you seen one? Pretty sure that's a "no".
Hamish- can you really believe that 90% of Squamish is for a gondola based on the people you have spoken with? No, this is a figure you have created and supplied us with.
Anders- Do you know for certain that there will be issues with the proposed development encroaching on endangered species habitat? No, this is speculation.
Me- do I know for certain this development will tank? I'd like to say yes, but really this is only what I've been able to convince myself based on the information I have access to which is this thread, the media, & the developers site. None of which I would consider to be 100% reliable.
These are just a few examples of many speculations that we have made that we are now reffering to as "facts" and even making calculations on them! As far as any of us know we could all be right but without more info or proof we really don't know sh1t except for our own opinions & the ones of others that we may happen to agree with here on the toprope.
I'm not trying to call anyone out but just trying to prove a point that we are all ill-informed & that we all have made serious speculations based on the lack of information available.
What I'm getting at is that we shouldn't be opposing each other based on all of the misinformation & speculation that has been given to us & that we have created. We should be actively researching & trying to find legitimate information and comparisons to similar issues, rather than basing our information on opinions. This is a major reason that I am not down for the current proposal at the current location- not enough info!! I really do agree with some ideas from those that are for a gondola & there are some really good arguments. Flip side though this is a major issue & a lot of suspect info & processes that have been implemented really make me question the whole thing. I like the "where's the beef" analogy & do think it goes both ways. Sadly all we've gotten to chew on is potatoes.
Edit- much respect to all those I mentioned here as well as the many others that have posted.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Ryan, I wouldn't print anything unless I believed it to be true. My 90% might be closer than you think. Don't forget most people that live in Squamish have never even hiked the Chief. Also of huge importance is the fact that you're not asking anyone to cough up; it's not like their property taxes will rise due to a gondola. And lastly, I believe Anders's numbers back this up. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he at a measily 100 plus Squamites "against"? If my 90% is close, this means there are 900 people "for" to date. You decide if that number sounds realistic or not.
I don't mind if you'd like to crunch the numbers a different way. How about this: 2 months, 120 negatives. Hmmmmm., that's 2/day. Do you think we could find 20 people per day from the yes camp?
And then there's the wording of just what exactly these votes are pertaining to. Many of the no votes may be simply arguing for a better process, not necessarily arguing against the gondola.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Doesn't matter if it "sounds" realistic, that's my point. All of our figures & ideas sound realistic, but it does not make them legitimate.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Go out on a limb Ryan, talk to people about it. Do your own survey, that's what I did. See what numbers you come up with. And don't limit it to your friends, ask everyone.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Hey Hamish, I agree that it is great to be discussing this & I have done so with many. Some are for, some are not. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and reasons as to why & I have no issue with either side. My issue though is that opinions & information are 2 very different things. We are buried in opinions but have very little information that is not based on said opinions. Very little of what we could call facts, proof, or beef. This is not our fault either, Bruce's bone to pick with the media is very legitimate. Anders issues with the parks & the developers way of distributing information is also questionable I'd say. That is of course, just my opinion :-)
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