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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:57am PT
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@philo, obviuoisly you're right, even if the sad Cermis episode happened under Clinton's Presidency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(1998);
(I remember as I was in DC then)
Having been there for quite a while I know that Mr Bush is only one facet of the dice, however you should know that is the gut and not the brain that rules feelings, so you should deal with your imperialistic fame, true or pretended that it may be.
I want to state also that, was it done in a COMPLETELY different way (read with a shared consensus) I would have persoannly agreed with the unbolting of the ladders
it is the forcing of the action, the fact that happened there, the fact that there is a notorious instigator, lots of other facts that sounds disturbing for me
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 26, 2012 - 10:01am PT
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I can not argue that a consensus of approval would have been preferable.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 26, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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John M. and Conrad A. I really loved those photos. I could have gone down with Bridwell when he made his probable 1st complete ascent of the Compressor Route but had some jive excuse and have kicked myself ever since. Cerro Torre has to be the most spectacular granite formation on earth.
Also, he said: I can't refrain to think about the imperialistic attitudes of yankees, their way to go abroad kick everybody's ass.
I think you have probably seen the last of this in Iraq. Word on the street is that a big ass kicking incursion basically bankrupts whoever does it and once we get out of Afghanistan, congress will likely never sanction another foreign war unless . . . The Imperialist mindset is problematic, for sure.
JL
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 26, 2012 - 10:12am PT
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Oh John,,, (head wagging in disbelief)... You had the chance and didn't go!?!? WTF man, WTF?
Kick yourself again!
You coulda been somebody, you coulda been a contender! Now look atch yas rollin around on a bike with only one wheel. HAHAHA :-)
Much respect.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jan 26, 2012 - 10:21am PT
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Bump-from Mr P
**How is that any climber, if we take the word to imply love and respect for the mountains, can reconcile and justify a compressor suspended by cables, in one of the most remote and beautiful ranges on earth, to be "history that needs to be preserved" ?
All the arguments about choice, locals making decisions, respect for the first climbers, etc hide behind the moral relativism typical of those who are not directly affected by something, never having to draw a line between right and wrong.
Jason and Hayden had the balls to do more than an outstanding climb: they took a stand to undo some of the harm inflicted by an egotistical maniac, in search of personal glory. Maestri perpetrated one of the biggest atrocities in the history of climbing. Finally, some vindication**
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jan 26, 2012 - 10:26am PT
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And another way to summarize taken from upthread
__I think it's bad for Americans to be chopping routes in other countries as if they own the place.
and
I think it's bad for Italians to be bolting routes in other countries as if they own the place.__
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 26, 2012 - 10:34am PT
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With reference:
"@kinobi Jay Smith, Steve Gerberding and I climbed Badlands on Torre Egger during the summer of 94 - 95. We retreated in 93 after getting weathered off. We left the ropes we used in place and came back two seasons later and completed the route. We used our ropes and on the way down cleaned them. We gave them to a climber in Peurto Natales. Thanks for asking and I'm as guilty as Maestri for using technology to ascend mountains. The line of what is acceptable changes with each generation. New meets old in a Titanic clash."
Yes, I know. I was one of the Italians meeting your the day after you finished the route in El Chalten. We met again the following Outdoor retailer in summer.
I feel you are no guilty for anyting, but while you were one of the few actually having done something "clean" in Patagonia, I just wanted to be very sure you were not talking sh#t, but acthing poo-poo.
Just in case...
I hope to have clearly expressed my thoughts.
Un fortunately I am seing many climbers having done "not so clean" ascents there, and talking loads of sh#t.
@I only Ski
With reference to
"
I think it's bad for Italians to be bolting routes in other countries as if they own the place.__ "
Well, many italians placed many bolts anywhere. It does not mean that all Italians places bolts everywhere. Yes, I did placed 525 bolts in Madagascar (but I was with Swiss and French... So they don't count...)
Best,
Emanuele Pellizzari
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jan 26, 2012 - 10:53am PT
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Hi Emanuele,
My only point is to show two basic sides that I don't feel can ever be resolved.
Cheers,
Arne
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 26, 2012 - 11:11am PT
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It's interesting that certain posters keep bringing up the 1970s ethics in the Dolomites as justification for Maestri's actions. Well, the prevailing ethic among most modern alpinists (of all backgrounds and nationalities) is to climb fast-and-light using as few bolts as possible (preferably none).
Why is it acceptable for the ethics and practices of the Dolomites to be exported to foreign countries in the 1970s but not acceptable for the prevailing modern ethic that is practiced is almost all current alpine climbing regions to be taken to its extremes (the removal of bolts)?
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jan 26, 2012 - 11:21am PT
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To the apologists of Maestri: Your attempts to paint this as an act of political terrorism targeting Italian history is baseless, tired, exasperating, and ruining this conversation. This has nothing to do with Italy. At all.
Regarding removal of bolts, and since you brought up Italy: Here is Naples in 2010: . Looks like some pretty solid stewardship. Don't worry, Naples isn't a historic site or anything. At this point at least the garbage is historic. Are they going to have a vote about that? What if two North Americans came and started cleaning up that pile? So, maybe consider that, and then we can talk about bolts.
Regarding the democratic vote in Chalten: All I have to say is voting resulted in George Bush and Silvio Berlusconi. Voting, even on a large "democratic" scale, can result in incorrect and unpopular outcomes. Consensus and majority are overrated. The best argument should win, regardless of numbers.
Regarding the number of bolts used on old routes in the Dolomites as the "standard of the time": Is this supposed to be a justification? It's not as though that style was necessary or cutting edge. I've heard a lot here about Maestri's futuristic talent as a rock climber in his day. Well, in Colorado anyway, climbers in the 1950s and 1960s, including Layton Kor for example, were climbing 300-meter alpine faces using minimal aid, leaving almost nothing behind, maybe one or two bolts on the whole route. There are no bolt ladders on The Diamond or in the Black Canyon, our proudest big faces. The Dolomitic tradition of maximum aid and fixed gear has really never been modern. You are citing examples of the worst climbing style of the day to justify further use of that style. And clean climbing ethics didn't originate in the USA: Paul Preuss was climbing in clean, good style, in the Alps, often solo, and writing about it, 60 years before Maestri did the Compressor Route. So don't act like his bolting style was "modern" in a historical context.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 26, 2012 - 11:31am PT
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Give it up guys.
Turning this into politics is stupid.
Let the Italians bitch and moan all they want.
This thread has only about 50 posts worth anything anyways and the rest is just typical over and over again the same back and forth supertopo bitch and moan drool.
Like little old ladies that need to yap yap yap and go on forever ...
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gimmeslack
Trad climber
VA
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Jan 26, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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At least no one has posted ponies yet :-o
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 26, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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@Werner: "This thread has only about 50 posts worth anything anyways and the rest is just typical over and over again the same back and forth supertopo bitch and moan drool."
50/1100 is actually a pretty good signal-to-noise ratio!
I remember one WOS thread that was way longer and had about two posts worth reading, one from Richard and one from Ammon (not coincidentally, both were only about the climbing and the experience and had nothing to do with the controversy and bitchfest).
If nothing else, the existence of this thread has been worth it to get the perspective and stories from Carlos Comesana, Leo Dickinson, John, Conrad, Steve, and others who have been up there and climbed.
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ezy
Mountain climber
Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 11:40am PT
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At least no one has posted ponies yet :-o
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 26, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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It's interesting that certain posters keep bringing up the 1970s ethics in the Dolomites as justification for Maestri's actions. Well, the prevailing ethic among most modern alpinists (of all backgrounds and nationalities) is to climb fast-and-light using as few bolts as possible (preferably none).
Why is it acceptable for the ethics and practices of the Dolomites to be exported to foreign countries in the 1970s but not acceptable for the prevailing modern ethic that is practiced is almost all current alpine climbing regions to be taken to its extremes (the removal of bolts)? Nobody said that it was acceptable to export Dolomite's ethics - which, by the way, was quite heterogeneous - elsewhere.
But as a matter of fact, climbers have always exported what they learned in their pioneering enterprises.
What has been said is that the set up of bolt ladders was one of the ethics from where Cesare Maestri was coming from.
It was mentioned to contextualize Maestri's style used for the Compressor route, to object against the accusation of "insanity" specifically expressed by Rolando Garibotti and Colin Haley.
Accusation that, in my opinion, represents an unacceptable lack of respect towards Maestri.
What is a different issue, is to use a new ethic, a new style, on old historical routes.
Lynn Hill had even to apologize because she removed a piton, to be able to climb the Nose free.
Alex Honnold, Alex Huber, Hansjorg Auer did not remove one single bolt or piton just because they freesoloed the HD NW Regular route, the Hasse Brandler or the Fish, respectively.
So, why K&K, who did use the Maestri's bolts in the belays, felt the right to chop the Compressor's bolts, even when previous assemblies expressed a negative vote, or the locals were against this decision?
For whom is scandalized by label "boys" ... I don't know their age ... but when I see their picture or a video like this one how am I supposed to call them?
http://vimeo.com/13831211
"Boys" is not an insult.
But if you tell me their age I can orienteer myself ... maybe teenagers is more appropriate ... thank you ...
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mr-p
Trad climber
Invisible City
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Jan 26, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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Affixing a monster size compressor to a mountain permanently, machine bolting unnecessarily right and left is the unacceptable lack of respect for the mountain, the environment and the community.
The fact that the practice was somewhat acceptable in the Dolomites, does not make it right. It does speak about what exactly is meant by "ethics". New or old, ethics mean the same thing. Moral principles and duty.
One would have to choose his idols more carefully.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 26, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Affixing a monster size compressor to a mountain permanently, machine bolting unnecessarily right and left is the unacceptable lack of respect for the mountain, the environment and the community.
The fact that the practice was somewhat acceptable in the Dolomites, does not make it right. It does speak about what exactly is meant by "ethics". New or old, ethics mean the same thing. Moral principles and duty.
One would have to choose his idols more carefully I suggest you to look at Cumbre ... the first solo ascent of the Compressor's route of Marco Pedrini ... one of the best climbing movies ever made ...
At a certain point he rides the Compressor, wears the sun glasses ... and starts to play as he was on a motorbike ...
... too cool!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 26, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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What is a different issue, is to use a new ethic, a new style, on old historical routes.
The issue with the compressor is not, and never has been, the imposition of a 'new ethic'. It is rather about a much delayed application of the prevailing ethic of the day. That, and what divides us in this discussion is differing perceptions of whether the route is indeed 'historic' to be preserved, or a continuing blight on a beautiful mountain to be removed.
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