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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I'm giving this topic a rest for a bit. I have no idea what the reality of this situation is.
None, except that I doubt the people who think they know really know.
Here's one article listing 7 major changes in the story. They seem to exaggerate their prose a bit but judge facts for yourself. It's really hard to imagine being mistaken on so many points about an operation that had their undivided attention.
http://www.alternet.org/news/150857/7_deceptions_about_bin_laden%27s_killing_pushed_by_the_obama_administration/?page=1
7 Deceptions About Bin Laden's Killing Pushed by the Obama Ad
I called Bush out on stuff and I like Obama but can't have a double standard.
Maybe it's good that they finally got him, but Pakistan used to be a pretty moderate Islamic state until we invaded Afghanistan and finally started bombing Waziristan with drones. If we even partly radicalize a nuclear armed zone of 170 million, then it's just another case of winning a battle but losing the war by hunting Bin Laden over Afghistan and Pakistan. Giving Bin Laden exactly what he said he wanted via exactly the stategy he outlined.
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Pakistan is reportedly saying this should not happen again without their consent. Which is perfect since the CIA has all of Bin Laden's flash drives. We just tell Pakistan we need to do this again but don't tell them who the target is.
Then it is just a matter of arresting everyone who goes to get treatment for stomach ulcers.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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DMT - it's more than double standards, no?
I think there is the rational approach in knowing something was wrong or illegal, and the emotional part of still liking it and cheering it. It's interesting I think. I know my thoughts from a rational perspective and my emotional thoughts and I find it interesting how they are not necessarily in alignment.
And as I mentioned earlier, the incident has made for some bedfellows I would not have thought I'd ever see. Wild.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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OBL was an enemy combatant, the Seals can shoot first and ask question later.
How is a guy in Pakistan unarmed in his pajamas an enemy combatant? Terrorist and enemy combatant are necessarily the same thing.
It's not that I have a problem with them killing the guy in cold blood, and do think he didn't hardly get a moment of suffering, but am concerned about how this enemy combatant terminology gets applied
"On March 13, 2009 United States Attorney General Eric Holder issued a statement that the United States had abandoned the Bush administration term "enemy combatant".[14][15] The statement said, ""As we work toward developing a new policy to govern detainees, it is essential that we operate in a manner that strengthens our national security, is consistent with our values, and is governed by law." From the wiki on it.
Peace
Karl
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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I won't mention any names, and I don't mean 'real' bed Coz, but seeing some people in the same camp on this issue...people I would have never dreamed would be in the same camp...has been fun. In include myself in this. I find myself agreeing with some people I never dreamed that to be a possibility. :)
* ellipsis for Rectorsquid. :)
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I'm giving this topic a rest for a bit. I have no idea what the reality of this situation is.
None, except that I doubt the people who think they know really know
None of the details are going to come out until all those involved are old men and much of the equipment and methods used used are quaint relics.
There is never any need for intentional obfuscation to obscure the details of sources and methods. Political types talking out their azzes,reporters making things up for a good story and the tin hat brigade will provide plenty of smoke to cover up the important details.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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It's worth considering WTF we're still doing in Afghanistan. Our own intel estimates there are only 100 Al Queda in the whole country.
So are we REALLY spending billions to take sides in a civil war in a Muslim country that has practically no bearing on us and which has made little progress in 10 years?
We could probably save medicare and Social Security for that kind of money. We must really love those dear sweet Afghanis!
If you are happy that OBL is dead (and I am too) we should make sure his stated strategy doesn't suceed, which is to BK the US in lost expensive causes in Muslim countries like the Soviet Union did.
Peace
Karl
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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DMT wrote: I called Bush out on stuff and I like Obama but can't have a double standard.
Yes double standards have been on FULL DISPLAY in this thread.
DMT
Maybe I'm missing something here but can anyone say with 100 percent fact based truth that what Obama did was wrong?
Radical wrote: Obama is very, very smart and makes very good honest judgements.....
Is he perfect?
Of course not...
Nobody is....
But he is pretty damn remarkable.
I thought so from the beginning and all his decisions so far support that...
I agree...decisions make by Obama come from a completely different mindset than Bush.
We lost a helicopter in this mission and we killed the number one terrorist in the world. Clean, sharp and efficient...Obama made the call.
The call under Bush was to invade a sovereign country, 50,000 Americans injured or death, a trillion dollars spend and the number one terrorist living the high life in Pakistan.
I'm sticking with Obama.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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This really eats at the heart of the right wing wack jobs...they just can't digest that a black, left leaning, socialist, commie, Muslim president not born in this country could actually put off something that a real cowboy American president couldn't.
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nature
climber
Railay, Thailand
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Hehe.... Bob.... isn't it great.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Nature...yes it is!!
F-ing wankers.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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What did Obama have to do with it other than saying yes?
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monolith
climber
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He made decisions like remote strike or raid. There was a lot at stake for him and the US if failure. Just saying yes to an operation that did not know for sure if BL was there is gutsy.
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nature
climber
Railay, Thailand
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a lot.
but in a certain sense it doesn't matter. The rush limbaugh following, Palin loving, Glen beck brainwashed of this country have their panties all in a bunch. That he may or may not have done something/nothing matters little on a certain level. There's a lot of Depends that need changing and some of us find it overly entertaining to watch. SUAP?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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That was a non-decision. A Predator strike was out of the question.
A bird in hand is worth ...
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monolith
climber
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A manned or unmanned aircraft could have taken out that house pretty easily.
A raid could have gone wrong, just like the Iranian hostage rescue attempt did.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Karl,
I can only say to you and the treehugger, disgruntled vet DMT, two words.
Resource domination. That's the reason everyone since the Mongels have been involved in Afganistan. That's just basic knowledge, I'd hope...
Doesn't seem to have done the Soviets or US any good though? You really think we could get any mileage there in a realistic future. Those guys are never going to welcome our asses
Peace
karl
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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What did Obama have to do with it other than saying yes?
If the mission had crashed and burned would people be asking the same question? No, he'd be getting the Jimmy Carter treatment.
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shut up and pull
climber
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OHHHH NOOOO. THE LEFT'S FAVORITE FILM MAKER -- MICHAEL MOORE -- IS FLYING OFF THE RESERVATION!
Michael Moore has gotten himself into something of a semantic firestorm regarding the death of Osama bin Laden, calling it an “assassination” and lamenting he didn’t get a day in court. Moore defended his position (and made the requisite Nazi analogy) to Piers Morgan on CNN tonight, arguing that America is “better” than tracking bin Laden down.
Initially, Moore did not seem particularly annoyed with the fact that bin Laden had been killed, only with the fact that “the story has changed four times now in four days” and that this was an “execution or an assassination,” technically. “I don’t think anyone would go ‘why did you go there and kill him?’” he told Morgan, though he seemed to change his tune a little later in the discussion.
“We’ve lost something of our soul here in this country,” Moore argued, by not trying bin Laden publicly. “Maybe I’m just an old-school American who believes in our judicial system,” Moore said (to much laughter from those who find him distasteful on the right, one must imagine), but “we’re better than them, we don’t just operate in an uncivilized way the way they did on 9/11.” He then went further to note that those who did not want trials for terrorists “hate what we stand for… you hate what the Constitution stands for.” Morgan challenged this premise– as well as his analogy to the Nuremburg trials– by noting that it would not be out of the ordinary for the Navy SEALs to assume that bin Laden was armed, shoot first, and ask questions later, which Moore also seemed fine with, if only they would be forthright about it. “I’m not sensing,” Morgan countered, “that they didn’t admit they killed him.”
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