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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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You still don't understand what "terminal velocity" is, and the effects of air resistance do you? Even when I gave you the info you needed to figure it out, and recognize your error.
Here's another hint:
When the miliotary does HALO (High Altitude Low Opening) jumps, Once they reach "terminal velocity", they actually slow a bit as they desend as the air gets denser the lower they get.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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Jolly... I see it was #1...
For a diver to reach 600MPH they are in the most aerodymanic position, head down with limbs tucked (like an arrow), wearing clothes designed to reduce drag.
Can that big piece of plane do any of that?
Note - Anticipating this response... One side is painted slick, but the other is not, and this would cause turbulance which whould be unstable, causing it to tumble. In other words... It would consistantly expose the maximal surface area to maximum drag.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:25pm PT
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Your stuff about how a 180 pound human body under control reacts is not on the same scale as an 80 ton airliner. Now you need to read up on gravity.
Regardless of an objects mass (weight) it will fall at the same rate EXCEPT FOR THE EFFECTS OF RESISTANCE.
And which would offer more "resistance" relative to its weight?
You may wish to go up and read the link I provided on "drag", as that explans the ratios and physics behind this.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
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klimmer, you don't understand washington. for one thing, arab terrorists have a lot better spy network than we do. they knew all those war games were going to be going on, and they also knew that the military would be having so much fun with them that they wouldn't even bother to leave, say, two F-16s back at andrews afb to guard the pentagon, the capitol and the white house. heck, they could've run airliners into a hundred buildings in d.c. that day if they'd'a had enough utility knives.
Rokjox,
I'm pretty sure Tony is being sarcastic. Lol.
In fact, I think it is dripping with sarcasm.
Too funny.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
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I know what terminal velocity is, constant acceleration makes it easier to estimate the speed, thats all. No... Constant acceleration is part of it, but you have to factor in drag and density [of the air]. Terminal velocity is reached when there is a balncve between the two and no further acceleration from gravity alone can occur DUE to the resistance, UNLESS "work" is done to overcome this... By, say, ENGINES!
Click the link and learn something... Although doing so now, will only embarass you, given that you've reloaded and continue to shoot yourself in the foot, despite being given all the info you need to see that you are wrong.
Same goes for you too Jolly, although not quite as bad. You failed to consider the aerodynamics of that large piece.
Once again, Jolly, something that has the word "dynamic" in it is giving you trouble. How'd you do in differential calculus?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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I say the terminal speed needs to be higher... Now you want to change pyscis to better align with what you wish to believe?
READ THE LINK before you bleed to death.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2010 - 03:34pm PT
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I know, I know...The They, in collusion with the Washington Post, somehow must've fabricated this entire list of victims of the Pentagon crash, including passengers. Because such a scenario sure makes a lot more sense than, you know, a real plane actually crashing into the building.
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/911victims/?&page=1
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 20, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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so let me try and be reasonable with you RJ, for just a miute....
There is a good chance the hijacked airliner was shot down, but the government doesn't want to admit it. They would them be liable for billions in lawsuits for being the actual cause of death of the passengers and crew. the court would recognize the need for the shoot down, but would the families? The Government didn't know the crew/pasengers were trying to take over the plane. If they were ... and couldn't have risked it if they did know ...
one airliner is shot down by the government....
but the one that hit the pentagon was not an airliner?
you are right, there is a conspiracy afloat here, nothing makes sense that you are arguing. factor in the explosion that brought down the WTC and you have quite a messy scenario with nothing you are saying makes sense.
you would think that a government capable of planning this would have bundled the package much prettier....
rrradam, your arguments with nitwit rj remind me of this:
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Jul 20, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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Fact is stranger than fiction...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jul 20, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
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I know that I should not really beat a dead horse, particularly one that is rotting. As I stated earlier, I am a PE, Chemical/Environmental.
Richard F. Humenn, PE was the Senior Project Design Engineer for electrical systems for the entire World Trade Center, and he had 60 people working under him. In other words, he was the guy in charge of all electrical at the WTC. A retired licensed professional engineer, he was certified by the States of New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and Washington, D.C.
Humenn stated to Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth:
I was Senior Project Design Engineer in charge of the design of the electrical systems for the WTC Complex in NY.
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Though an electrical engineer by trade, I was also very familiar with the structures and their conceptual design parameters.
On September 11, I watched the live TV broadcast of the progressive collapse of the World Trade Towers with disbelief, as the mass and strength of the structure should have survived the localized damage caused by the planes and burning jet fuel.
...
Few engineers have as much first-hand knowledge of the Twin Towers as Humenn, so his opinion carries some weight. As he explains, "Though an electrical engineer by trade, I was also very familiar with the structures and their conceptual design parameters."
An Electrical PE is way different than a Structural PE. Apples and oranges.
His opinion is not worth much more than anyone else. Just saying...
Unless someone foots the bill for another "WTC Study", there will not be one. Guess who might foot the bill? Yep, the government, the same ones that you don't trust.
Other food for thought brought up in this thread is how heat impacts the structure. Thermal stress can do much different things to structures than one might surmise (think joints, connections, thermal stress, etc), and you do not need to hit the melting point of a metal (or even get close) in order to have drastic impacts upon a structures ability to deal with design loads. I am dealing with this at temperatures of less than 400 degrees F. This is due to the complexity of the issue.
One other consideration. All this stuff on the internet that is posted MUST be taken with a grain of salt. How many versions are there? Is there configuration control on the data? Just because some web site posts some technical information with regards to 911 do you know that it is the actual data? While this perhaps is a "fun" (and I use that term loosely)exercise, you won't find the answers clicking around the internet. While some of it may stimulate thought and even perhaps some folks may learn something from even the dumbest site, it is naive to think that the internet will provide all the answers.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 20, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
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Nice summary post on the last page Rox
I almost forgot about this one
Bin Laden is accused of being the mastermind, but all his family and friends are not only ALLOWED to leave, they are given FREE FLIGHTS OUT OF THE US, on SPECIALLY arranged flights, when every other flight into or out of America is denied permission to fly ANYWHERE.
Yeah, what sheep we are to let that pass with little comment or investigation by anyone!
Peace
Karl
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Jul 20, 2010 - 08:00pm PT
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Or Rumsfeldt's 2.3 Trillion Dollar question either, Karl.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 20, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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Instead NIST, 911 commission and FEMA dazzle you with bullshi't after bullshi't to keep you occupied away from the actual truth ...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 20, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
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Really, I mean WTF
I could understand the skepticism of many "deniers" in this thread. The "inside job" scenario could feel implausible to sensible people.
But, on the other hand, the fact Bin Laden's family was specially flown out after 9-11 is not in question, and neither is the 2 trillion missing dollars, but those deniers don't seem willing to acknowledge or call for any investigation about even these facts that are apparently beyond dispute.
That to me, is sheep-like, head in the sand mentality. I can understand, if you feel like the government is already pure fascism and has us by the short hairs, that freedom and democracy are dead, that a person might throw up their arms and say "the government rules us and I wont question them because I might get hurt and it won't do anything"....Well, that's a sad state of affairs and hardly patriotic, but if that's where you're at, admit it to yourself and face the truth.
These are not trivial issues. Something stinks, no matter what you believe
Peace
Karl
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 20, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
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Also, contrary to Truther belief, Bin Laden family was flew out after the flight ban was lifted, not before.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.asp
And since Rumsfield publicly said that the accounting systems for a huge defense department is not working allows Truthers to claim it was all stolen and 9/11 was used to cover it up because he said it on 9/10 the day before 9/11.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 20, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Jul 20, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
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"accounting systems for a huge defense department is not working ..."--Monolith
Wow, Monolith--it blows me away that someone who has made a voice on this thread, such as yourself, sweeps a 2.3 TRILLION dollar "accounting error" under the rug...
What DOES matter to you? Being right on the internet, or caring about what toilet YOUR tax dollars got thrown into without explanation or investigation?
Unbelievable--that you gallantly put down any belief that differs with yours, with your head sooo in the sand (or UP the azz of the Government).
edit: You DO know that a TRILLION is a thousand billions? I remember you arguing when the Gov't was pushing for the 700 billion dollar stimulus package that it was TOO much money to not be properly accounted for during allotment.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 20, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
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Coz wrote
Karl it was reported that the Bin Laden family flew out in every major media outlet.
Honestly guy, you're not doing yourselve any credit
I don't think it was reported in every news outlet and it was even denied for a time.
And what I'm saying is that we the people didn't demand accountability for that act or even an explanation. We let Bush testify with Cheney together, not under oath and with nothing they said recorded. WTF! Why would they even request such a thing when we're talking about a major event?
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=September_11,_2001:_Evacuation_of_Saudi_Nationals
Some info about those flights above. Looks like there was a flight on the 13th (when they weren't allowed) but most flew out on the 20th. Still, elsewhere in the country 5000 Muslims were rounded up on a variety of charges and not-charges while the Bin Ladens were allowed to go back without being interviewed.
Interesting aside from
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/200806412758358
"Dale Watson, the FBI's former head of counter-terrorism, said the Saudis "were not subject to serious interviews or interrogations".
Permission to fly
Federal authorities gave permission for the plane to fly.
Tom Kinton, director of aviation at Boston's Logan airport, said: "We were in the midst of the worst terrorist act in history and here we were seeing an evacuation of the bin Ladens! ... I wanted to go the highest levels in Washington."
Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi ambassador to the US who is said to have organised the exodus, met President George Bush on September 13, 2001, two days after the terror attacks.
It is not known if they discussed the repatriation plan.
'No secret flights'
The White House has declined to comment on the claims, but sources told Vanity Fair the Bush administration was confident no secret flights took place.
Mr Clarke, who headed the Counter-terrorism Security Group of the National Security Council, said he did not recall who requested approval for the flights, but believes it was either the FBI or the State Department.
Special Agent John Iannarelli, the FBI's spokesman on counter-terrorism activities, said: "I can say unequivocally that the FBI had no role in facilitating these flights one way or another."
So the Saudi Royal is meeting Bush two days after 9-11, and the 28 pages blanked out of the 9-11 report were reportedly connecting Saudi Royal money to the 9-11 plot. Nothing here to look at I'm sure. Better to invade Iraq than worry about the country that supplied the ringleader and nearly all the hijackers plus some of the money.
Peace
karl
Edit: Some research reveals that it wasn't until 2003 that Richard Clarke confirmed what had only been rumor before, that those flights really happened.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 20, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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The World knew when Michael Moore told them that the Bin Laden Family flew out when everyone else was grounded in his movie Fahrenheit 9-11.
I don't think it was widely known until then. They certainly didn't announce it to the World. It was done quietly. Yes, some papers announced it but it certainly wasn't on the front page. It was buried.
Man, I'm gonna have to watch F9-11 again. It's been some time . . .
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:59am PT
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