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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 23, 2017 - 08:44pm PT
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While all agree that a cure for cancer would be wonderful, ultimately there is no cure for mortality. And when heart disease and cancer have been cured our ending will still loom before us as will our insignificance if that's what we believe
How can it be that I know people who have little appreciation of art and literature but who nevertheless move through life relatively content, even happy? Surely things are not as bad as you think?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 24, 2017 - 08:30am PT
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Surely things are not as bad as you think?
Yes, but there is that pesky thing, called “the human condition,” though—and it looks to be challenging for most people, to say the least.
“You, most blessed and happiest among humans, may well consider those blessed and happiest who have departed this life before you, and thus you may consider it unlawful, indeed blasphemous, to speak anything ill or false of them, since they now have been transformed into a better and more refined nature. This thought is indeed so old that the one who first uttered it is no longer known; it has been passed down to us from eternity, and hence doubtless it is true. Moreover, you know what is so often said and passes for a trite expression. What is that, he asked? He answered: It is best not to be born at all; and next to that, it is better to die than to live; and this is confirmed even by divine testimony. Pertinently to this they say that Midas, after hunting, asked his captive Silenus somewhat urgently, what was the most desirable thing among humankind. At first he could offer no response, and was obstinately silent. At length, when Midas would not stop plaguing him, he erupted with these words, though very unwillingly: ‘you, seed of an evil genius and precarious offspring of hard fortune, whose life is but for a day, why do you compel me to tell you those things of which it is better you should remain ignorant? For he lives with the least worry who knows not his misfortune; but for humans, the best for them is not to be born at all, not to partake of nature’s excellence; not to be is best, for both sexes. This should be our choice, if choice we have; and the next to this is, when we are born, to die as soon as we can.’ It is plain therefore, that he declared the condition of the dead to be better than that of the living.”
– Aristotle, Eudemus (354 BCE), surviving fragment quoted in Plutarch, Moralia, Consolatio ad Apollonium, sec. xxvii (1st century CE) (S.H. transl.)
To realize contentment in one’s life is to see through it as though it were completely transparent . . . a kind of mirage.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Nov 24, 2017 - 10:02am PT
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Yes, but there is that pesky thing...
Talk about your one-trick pony.
Do you ever post up about, let alone emphasize, the sunny upside of life? Or the evolution if not progress modern humanity's made in the face of life's innate obstacles and suffering?
It seems to me half the readers here do not realize that you ARE the true-blue postmodernist. Nor apparently have they read much of postmodernism or (a) they'd know what a morbid, monstrous AND TRULY FAKE thing it was (is) that led to so much mess in 20th century academia, causing so much needless confusion and setback regarding truth, objectivity, science, values, meaning, etc.; and (b) they'd know, they'd take responsibility and they'd choose not to enable it.
Somebody yins, and your signature response is to yang. It's your nature as an antagonistic post-modernist. I bet you must be rather high-maintenance (and not a lot of fun?) to go on some overnight or multi-day outdoor climbing project with. Just a guess.
Alternate points of view, perspectives, frames of reference, interpretations are fine. To a point. There is great skill in this; and much insight can come from applying this skill. But you just don't know, it seems, when to stop; or when to simply play along for awhile to see where something might go.
BREAKING NEWS! Some interpretations, some povs ARE BETTER than others!!
The sky is blue today. 330 million primates in one place are getting along, relatively speaking; they are not at war spilling blood, cutting each other in half, a characteristic that marks much of our history. Homicide rates are at historical lows (something like 3-4 per 100k in many a place). Given reality's entropic and darwinian nature, these conditions, also FACTS, could not only be interpreted but indeed emphasized, I’d say, as… pretty FUKin' awesome!!
See you on Mars!
...
Fantasyland: How America Went Haywire
Kurt Andersen
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 24, 2017 - 10:29am PT
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Lennox raises an interesting point.
I remember years about when a teacher at a seminar I was attending made everyone spend an hour in a meaningless space and mindset, so far as we could. Several participants yelled, "Shit! I can't spend a moment in a meaningless world," and the teacher explained that what the student just said was attaching a negative meaning to their experience, and to stop it. In fact, stop attaching ANY meaning or evaluation or conception or descriptors. Just to let all that fall away.
The value of this is that by and large, few people experience their lives in the raw, without it being extruded through various scrims of what they want or think is right or accurate or noble or holy or rebellious or whatever way they are seeing the world and themselves. Dump the "way," even for an hour, and the universe remakes itself.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nov 24, 2017 - 11:18am PT
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^^^Yeah, i think that's why 80% of my climbing career has been on-sight only! I learned early that what was hard for most people was easy for me, or visa-versa.. just trying to rid the mind of those negative thoughts was harder than actually climbing. Go figure🤔
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Nov 24, 2017 - 11:21am PT
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How can it be that I know people who have little appreciation of art and literature but who nevertheless move through life relatively content, even happy? Surely things are not as bad as you think?
I don't imagine that art and literature are the only keys to the aesthetic experience. There is the beauty of nature (they don't call it inspiration point for nothing) the beauty of math, science, you name it. My point is that the aesthetic experience is a powerful tool of reconciliation to the grave and constant occurrences of life. For instance, I've always thought climbing was this powerful contrast of struggle and beauty in which the distractions of the climb become overwhelming, and finally, complementary to the beauty and prodigious space you're surrounded by in a kind of thrilling reacquainting revelation. Not to mention the beauty of the climb itself like some great sculptural found object. I don't think things are bad at all.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 24, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
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I think what John was saying pertains to formalized art and literature. John has written a lot about the simple joy of movements, of a high vantage overlook, and so forth, and his blog is full of interesting anecdotes per bouldering etc. So you have aesthetics and story telling right there, direct experience and anecdotes being the basic resource for both visual art and literature.
Artists and writers take that bucolic, inchoate source material and weave it into formalized stuff that requires all kinds of context and associations and erudition to fully grasp, and unless you have some taste and flare for this work, it tends to leave people behind ... or else, they look at the stuff and think, "Who needs it," not understanding, perhaps, that they're simply looking at an iteration of their own experience(s).
Another thing is the tendency of many to consider the arts as a slippery discipline in which there are no actual experts for the lack of being able to quantify their work. That is, the idea that EVERY appraisal of art and literature is primarily if not entirely subjective. That can lead folks into expecting something for nothing.
Put differently, few would look at math or cosmology and expect to get to the bottom of it, so far as they can, with no formal study or grappling with difficult material. The same folks sometimes take offence that it also takes work and serious study, often a lot of it, to understand and appreciate the formalized article.
And so you get, "I know what I like, and that ain't it." The idea that "it" might be more than what they see or read, at first blush, is a non-starter for some. This is especially so with work that is not clearly beautiful, mirrors the "real" world, or lacks what in classical terms is considered mastery. For example, Vermeer is easy to concede mastery, whereby Pollack might confound. "I could slop paint around like that," we hear.
Except they can't.
There there's new masters like Osnat Tzadok who can do everything from smaltzy wine label art to stunning abstracts.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 24, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
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HFCS: . . . you ARE the true-blue postmodernist.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
I embrace humor, irony, style, and multiple codings. You take too many things seriously, IMO. The quote I posted is way older than anything modern . . . much less post-modern.
Some povs DO seem better, but alas, none of them prove out over the long run to BE better. And what’s “better,” anyway? More productive? More instrumental?
Paul may disagree, but art and style are neither. Art if frivolous, and that makes it important.
Paul: I don't think things are bad at all.
No, I don’t either. Course, I’m not one to have much belief in “things,” either. So, you see the challenge for me in the conversation.
Be well.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
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Sapiens rule the world, because we are the only animal that can cooperate flexibly in large numbers.
Such horsesh!t.
Only human being can rule.
Since you think you are animals you're useless.
That's why you fools are all for robots and making yourselves extinct in so many ways.
St000pid animals.
Human beings have intelligence that animals don't have ......
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 25, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
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To realize contentment in one’s life is to see through it as though it were completely transparent . . . a kind of mirage
And what lies on the other side of this transparency, bringing contentment?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 25, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
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Paul: the aesthetic experience is a powerful tool of reconciliation to the grave and constant occurrences of life.
With humility, I would have said it was much more than that. The aesthetic experience is life.
Don’t get me wrong. I am totally captivated by that other stuff.
John,
Were / are you a lover of Hemingway? I might see a similarity in your writing at times.
Jgill: And what lies on the other side of this transparency, bringing contentment?
A great question. I don’t know. I’m doing my best to report. It’s a sample of one. It’s only what *I* see.
John, I think there’s holiness of living in every being, be they Forrest Gump or Einstein or even a serial killer. Living is in the experience. (The consciousness of serial killers must be a fascinating topic of discussion.)
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Nov 25, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
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Ode to Joy!!!!
Thanks, HFCS!
We are sublime and profane at the same time!
Or, according to the Bhagavadgita were are made of the three Gunas - Tamas, Rajas, and Sattva.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Nov 26, 2017 - 10:22am PT
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Have started the Sapolsky video. Excited to watch the rest. Thanks for the sweet share - my particular area of interest, though I am a generalist in many respects, is the juncture of stress, CNS transneuronal degeneration, genetic predisposition, and the use of clinical nutrition to promote enzymes inhibited due to genetic polymorphism. Polymorphism of the glucocorticoid receptor NR3C1 can cause a lot of trouble here.
I think there’s holiness of living in every being
MikeL, Your solipsism is slipping.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 26, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
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Why? Experience is the only thing there is, IMO. It's the only thing you think you know.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Nov 26, 2017 - 02:03pm PT
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John,
Were / are you a lover of Hemingway? I might see a similarity in your writing at times
I try not to be overly eloquent. It's a struggle.
;>)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 27, 2017 - 06:52am PT
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You're funny.
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