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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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on a different thread karl said this,
"I guess it's a general principle. Our desire to force control around us eventual is self-defeating."
seems somewhat appropriate here too...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Tradman, "praticuler"?
Atcha, worst thread ever? Come now, we've done LOTS worse than this..
If only the indians hadn't let those Plymouth Rock and Cortez folks land.......
You know what happens when those lemmings finally overwhelm their environment?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob, my upthread post (#888) was pretty clearly written, I surmise you disagree, but if you not getting what I'm saying then, there's not much else I can do as I can't say it any more simple or clear than that.
Your latest questions are the same sort of scope and scale creep as tradman's - not really a valid context or argument. But in general I view wholly bolt-dependent climbing as any other consumptive activity and in general, human nature being what it is, the behavior displayed is no different than bacteria in a culture dish - unrestrained growth until the medium is exhausted. I'm guessing if you could plot the growth of bolts in a three hour driving radius of major urban areas it would look indistinguishable from swabs on just such a culture dish.
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jstan
climber
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On another thread I predicted this one will not reach 1000. A torrent of abuse will come my way if I am wrong so I will have to nuke this post shortly.
I know a lot of you are less patient than myself. So you don't need to make the obvious comment here.
Karl raises the issue of what the process ahead will feel like. Good point. A story.
Long ago when the sky was blue I was standing on the carriage road talking to Lester Germer. For those few who do not know Lester he volunteered to fly as a fighter pilot over Europe during WW I, in the process becoming an ACE. After the war he came back to Cornell, got his Doctorate, and then went to work at Bell Labs. While there he did the work, the Davisson Germer experiment very clearly showing that electrons can be both particle and wave, and which resulted in a Nobel prize. Einstein is quoted later as saying that experiment was the thing that most illuminated his thinking on the Quantum. While in his sixties Lester was involved in a bivy under a waterfall in the Tetons when a person higher up lost their footing, fell, and planted their crampons deeply into Lester's back. Not long after Lester was still able to trek in the Himalaya.
While we were standing talking a noobie started soloing Ken's Crack looking for all the world as though he had little time left to live. Lester said, "Somebody has got to do something!"
Lester felt helpless.
This was a tremendous victory for me. There is only one thing I can claim to share with that Giant. I too feel helpless. As you all work to solve the insolvable hold close the fact that you share something with a true Giant. Indeed when you cease feeling helpless, you will know you have lost the path.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
the secret life of T*R
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i just wanted to make a post in this thread cuz everyone else is
thanks
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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1000 bolts with coz's name on them.
"Posts" Werner, posts.
PS. Coz, thanks for coming clean on your rap-bolting history.
~~~
I know it's taboo to mention this, but I wonder if they would have done differently if they were allowed to power drill.
Hypothetical at best...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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jstan,
Please don't nuke your post. I like it.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Mr. Stan has it right in so many ways.
At the same time I am not entirely sure about all this together stuff which Karl talks about. I am not strong and bold as some, but many cannot keep up with me. So we are not exactly together.
But I do identify with the sense of helplessness which Jstan refers to. I see people argue that these last great faces should not just be the domain of the bold hard climber. Yet that is the truth of these places. With so much rock climbing out there to do, at every level of difficulty and safety, why can’t folks just choose wisely? Now DR is suggesting we just hike up Half Dome, rap off, and do the relatively easier upper pitches because they are great? WTF? Is it not better to go choose climbs you can do?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: Your latest questions are the same sort of scope and scale creep as tradman's - not really a valid context or argument.
Funny...that exactly how feel about some of your posts.
This thread is about this route and it (this route) isn't wholly dependent on bolts and the people who will climb it will not be the fun-first crowd but will have a very high skill level at trad climbing and are willing to make the long hike into the base...not the sport/gym climbers you despise so much.
You just took this route, thread as a chance to go off.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"But I do identify with the sense of helplessness which Jstan refers to. I see people argue that these last great faces should not just be the domain of the bold hard climber. Yet that is the truth of these places. With so much rock climbing out there to do, at every level of difficulty and safety, why can’t folks just choose wisely?"
One climbers truth is another climbers change in style. Who decides this truth. The same argument could have had us lay any hammering or even aid off of El Cap. Fixed Lines anywhere, hangdogging anywhere.
Climbers weren't patient in the past and they aren't now. 10 people could decide to leave some line for the furture but it's often just because they have something else to do, are lazy, or for whatever reason.
This whole discussion seems just like a sexual morality argument to me.
"Kids should wait until they are married to have sex"
"Sex is just for procreation, no birth control allowed"
"One kind of sex is OK but the other is evil"
and most especially
"Hey, Bill, I hear you said you had a hot date tonight, I hope you get some buddy! Who's your date"
Bill: "It's your sister Bob!"
Bob: ^(^*)&)(*(*
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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These are the right questions. Go around two more times and then be prepared to step into another's shoes - and you will be there.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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barefoot as we speak...my shoes are available.
I'm a little at sea myself. Never did anything like this before, and I expected some backlash. But this...
Somehow Ksolem's post just got to me. Seems so moralistic and bitter. I just suggested a way to go play on some cool stone. If it offends you, that wasn't my intent. Just walk on by. Your shoes are pinching me, but I'll try to limp a little further in 'em. Maybe get the hang of it.
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jstan
climber
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DR
I apologize for never telling you how much I enjoyed working with you back in the
70's. It was a real pleasure. We would have had a lot more of the old crew present if
you and Yvon had been at Facelift4. Maybe next time.
Right now this is in good hands, I think. The best hands. I don't get to say anything but damned exciting don't you think?
I'll be paying for this big time if it goes over 1000.
De'il take the hindmost!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob, no route stands entirely alone - every route is woven into the collective whole. And the more iconic the stone, the climbers, the line, or the means, the more impact it has on that collective whole. We wouldn't be at 900+ posts if this weren't just such an example. As such it can quite legitimately framed in the context of today's climbing and the contribution it makes to the future. That future and this climb look entirely rosey to you so I have no doubt you simply think it's a non-issue.
Hate spoil the view out the window of your caboose or engine, but, whichever you've been to riding in, we clearly have a very different view out the windown of both the past and the future.
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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When the ears of Indian corn allow themselves to hear the whisperings of fluted asphalt shingles on a cabin at 4,877 feet, the engine blocks of countless Chevy Novas will salute the dawn or chug a quart of tainted buttermilk, as the gods slow dance.
F#ck if I know what that means, but I'm in the thread, baby! I'M PART OF HISTORY!!
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Leave me out of it... I'm Canadian
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Healyje,
And your view that the increasing popularity of climbing is a bad thing is exactly opposite of mine. The more climbers the better. The more people filling their lungs with mountain air and their veins with a bit of adrenaline, the better. Don't be selfish. Our sedentary culture benefits from pushing away from the keyboard and going outside. The point of view we gain toward our at-risk civilization benefits from looking up, not down.
Climbing is strong medicine. Consider what it's done for your life. You probably want that for your kids. I want it for mine. Am supplying it. And all their friends. Best perspective on life and on an endangered planet I can think of.
Now the kind of climbing that you do, that most of us here do, is too strong a jolt for most people, and for most climbers. So I'm glad there are gyms and sport climbs for those who want less, can handle less. It still helps, still benefits our culture. And the problems it creates, the lines at Nutcracker and the tape wadded up in cracks and the trampeled flowers at the base are pretty easy to solve compared to the horrendous problems facing civilization itself that the point of view created and nurtured through climbing will be helping to solve.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Festus,
I dig it...It's kind of a cross between Ginsberg and Beefheart.
(I had a 63 Nova, sweet car)
I have to say that I am trying to understand both sides of this issue. It's clear though that Half Dome and the South Face aren't considered just any stone, compared to some of the other areas that have been discussed.
Doug, why so little of the article was dedicated to the upper half? I mean compared to the amount of writing about the bottom half. Seems it was intentional, like maybe you're not "quite" as proud of the top half? I mean, I know it's Seans route and all, but you are the author.
Edit: I like your comment about looking at what climbing has done for our lives and wanting it for our kids. I know I'm teaching mine to climb! A couple of them like it more than the other two....hmmmm...
Your shoes are feeling a bit snug right now too.
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jstan
climber
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when the mist begins to clear........everyone will come into view.
everyone
No person's experience can invalidate another's.
The central question is still there.........hanging.
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Frank Sanders
Trad climber
Devils Tower. Wyoming
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OOOhhh !!! I've been climbing too much, and have put way too little time in behind the computer!! Guess that I've missed most of this....but...has anyone done the 2nd ascent...Yet????
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