Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
|
Remember these?Looking forward to reading your book Licky.
Ken
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
|
I was surprised at how big the lake was compared to what I had imagined. Given the size, I could see from the photo how chopping through the ice and dragging the stuff out was more of a challenge than I had imagined.
|
|
Steve in Tahoe
Social climber
Lake Tahoe, NV
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
|
My guess is that the debris (the little there is of it) was scattered far and wide and has been slowly discovered and put in that pile. That being said, I was shocked there was anything there.
Steve
|
|
Steve in Tahoe
Social climber
Lake Tahoe, NV
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
|
Seems like the whole load went into the lake - has anyone every reported finding bales anywhere else, such as along the debris trail? If the plane had crashed on dry ground, and maybe burned, there'd be no story here at all...
Steve
|
|
Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
|
Hey Rok,
The NTSB report states structural failure, but doesn't get into the detail that today's reports do, so it's hard to determine how much of the wing came off.
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=56017&key=0
Edit to add that earlier in the thread, this has already been covered and Licky hinted at the left engine being involved, and also stated that the death certificate of the pilot had details of what caused the crash. So hell if I know what happened. Being as it's been 5 years and no book, perhaps he would care to shed light on this?
If it was an outboard section, it could have left enough that they came in relatively level....especially if they still had elevator control. They would have had to come in fairly hot, if they slowed down the damaged wing would drop. That's been noted in a few incidents where they lost the outboard of a wing and the aileron. Roll control could sometimes be regained using the engine and what was left of the wing. And the PV-1 did have some good power on it...when the engines were in good shape anyways.
If the NTSB report is true, I guess that the overloading, combined with strong mountain drafts or wave rotor, may have caused the structural failure. An additional factor may have been that the aircraft was over controlled in those drafts, causing more stress to already fatigued materials.
I guess all in all, no one will ever know what really happened, I have heard a ton of theories about gunfights and etc etc.
But it is part of the Yose history for sure.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
|
Yeah, that was a really in-depth accident analysis! LOL!
In-flight structural failure caused by trying to fly through large pine trees.
|
|
Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
|
It's damned thin, that's for sure. And I'm just speculating based on that thin piece of information, is all - mostly out of boredom.
I'm re reading the whole thread again....not a lot of reports of tree contact other then then one that Rok mentioned.
It's already been said weather wasn't a factor - but they were running low and at night. On a route they had flown before. It seems odd that they would have been THAT low unless something was wrong?
Apparently he blew the left engine, according to Licky. But I don't see how his cause of death could indicate that, as he has said in the past. And with the NTSB report so thin, there is no way to tell if that was the case. I assume that Licky has the rest of the reports.
The report is too thin, no information regarding mods or anything else, so anything that was done to the airframe was done so without getting it recertified, which in this case isn't surprising of course.
EDIT: I see that Licky confirmed that it had been modded to a Howard 500 - hence the heavier load ratings. We used to have one at our shop. (N500HP) Nice machines.
But you would think that the report would at least list if the power plants weren't standard.
EDIT 2: Rox, after looking at some of the crash photos, I have an idea about what caused your confusion on the nose cone.
To me, it looks like the nose cone had separated from the airframe, and was perhaps floating vertical with air trapped in the top of it. That close to the shore, I can't see a Howard 500 standing on it's tail. Also hard to miss the rounded tree trunk impression on the end of it....
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
|
Well, Vegas, you obviously know the fine line a twin piston driver treads.
When you suddenly have one turmin' and one burnin' a very high percentage of
pilots are ill-prepared especially if you add in a high load factor, high altitude,
and darkness.* With the torque of those big ol' radials you don't have long
to get your act together especially if you're barely clearing the terrain to
begin with. I really doubt many could keep that beast on an even keel and
climbing, in the dark. Even less likely would have been the likelihood of
turning around without terrain-following-radar.
* You know those guys didn't practice engine-out procedures in that thing. No way.
|
|
Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
|
Hey, Reilly, I sent an email to Licky about this, after reading everything all over again. Made my work day go by quick!
So here is my analysis.
He bought the Howard in 1976. So he couldn't have had much time in it. As you have previously, and correctly, stated, the Howard had some issues with rudder authority due to the powerplants. The only US flying one used to sit on our ramp years ago, and the pilots said it could be a real bear to fly.
I agree that he probably didn't do a lot of engine out practice in this thing. According to the FAA, he didn't have a type rating (but that could have been redacted in the report as well.)
My take of it is this;
1. Airframe failure
Rotor is scary as hell. I've flown in it in gliders, surfing the Minden wave. If it was "airframe failure" my guess would be that he got spanked, pulled too hard, and took the wing off. I can't find any reports that state HOW far the wing was from the lake, but I can see enough of it in the pictures that my idea of partial failure upthread was incorrect. If the wing came off, all of it did. And the Howards did have some wing loading issues, and corrosion issues due to the fact that they used a mix of old and new parts - some of them VERY old, war time parts.
2. Uncontained engine failure
This is what I think is the most likely scenario, considering that Licky has let loose the tidbits that it had an oil leak (all radials leak, so in radial parlance "oil leak" means it was leaking a LOT) and that the death certificate of the pilot would shed light on the cause of the crash.
Though he didn't come out and say they blew the engine, I think it's likely given the motor location on the 500 that an uncontained engine failure could have blown shrapnel into the cockpit, injuring or killing the pilot. Another scenario in this vein, was that there was an engine fire, that caused the wing failure.
3. Engine failure and stall
The last scenario I have, is that he blew the engine, caged it, and was trying to set it down in the lake...which probably looked like a meadow at the time. He turned into the dead engine, stalled it, and spun in. Some planes, you can get away with that; having been up close and personal to the Howard, I seriously doubt it was one of them. If he didnt have a lot of time in it, and blew an engine while flying low, slow, and heavy loaded....not a good combo.
Anyways, that's my warm armchair analysis. Hopefully we will get the whole story some day!
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:19am PT
|
Vegas,
Good analysis. I suppose it is possible but I doubt either of us believe there
was a rotor west of the Sierra crest* and I don't think the Howard had enough
hours on it to have serious corrosion issues.
As you well know if a radial ain't leaking it is clearly out of oil. My money
is on a blown something and subsequent confusion getting the correct mill caged.
Even if they had the rudder authority I'd bet my house they wouldn't have
been able to climb on one and, as I said, they would have been sorely pressed
to turn around in the dark. A no win sityation.
*I got some time in rotors too - E ticket? HaHaHa! Try Holy F ticket, eh? :-)
|
|
Licky
Mountain climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
|
One of the toughest part of this research is the time issue. It turns out that many of the State and Federal agencies were not under any mandate to hold onto files. Many have purged their systems. One of those is the NTSB. Using the FOIA request I asked for all field notes, sketches, photos, and reports for the event. The only paper produced is that single one page report that keeps popping up.
So now I/you/we are left with what little physical evidence there was that can be substantiated by photos and/or reports. The plane was cut up and hauled out. Sold in Fresno as scrap to help pay for the costs.
And interviews with those that are familiar with that plane. I have found both pilots and maintenance personnel that knew that plane very well. The same with the only two flying models to date and their owner/pilot. By the way, he has two more that are being refurbished. Imagine, only 19 made and he has four.
|
|
Licky
Mountain climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
|
Honestly gang..I really am still on the trail. Been writing a lot, but I do have a full time job that keeps me traveling
By the way...Ken...The guy that had the salvage operation produced two interesting items during the interview. One was one of the tee shirts (I got mine at Lower Merced Pass Lake) and the other was a bright red fire axe that had been left at the lake
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
|
Cool Licky,
The axe. You just got me laughing. Made my day.
Ken
|
|
lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
|
And the cash that Jack snatched.
|
|
Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
|
Hey Reilly,
I should have said "rotor and/or severe mountain drafts" to be more accurate, to be sure. Rotor can occur on the west, but I also think it's unlikely as you said.
Could corrosion or metal fatigue have been an issue? Sure - internal parts were used from wartime airframes, almost all of which were flown outside their flight envelope. The plane was about 10 years old at that point.
Judging from some other info that has come to light, I'm still saying engine failure leading to structural failure, or an engine failure and then a stall trying to land it on the lake.
It kind of amazes me that they would strip out a Howard that was that new to use to haul dope though. They were PRICY - $500k - and super plush inside. Hell of a choice and suggests he had a lot of money lol.
Rok....how did you like my idea about why you could see the nose cone and not the rest of the plane? :D
And give him his axe back, he stole it fair and square :p haha
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 12:42am PT
|
I want to hear more about "The Notebook".
List of sources?
List of clients?
|
|
Papillon Rendre
Social climber
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 01:55am PT
|
Loose lips sink ships!
Most everyone who lived in the valley, whether they knew Jack or not, heard about the book.
Arvin Abbott was the Manager of the Village Store. I worked for him at that time and there was no female (Asst.) Manager until the following year.
-PR
|
|
sempervirens
climber
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 02:00am PT
|
Why don't you oldtimers tell us what happened to Jack.
|
|
Licky
Mountain climber
California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2011 - 02:48am PT
|
There were three black books
That Dood: I have spent many hours on the phone with Jack's family, old friends from HS and college. Like all of us, there are sides that always raise eyebrows when one hears the stories.
|
|
David D.
Trad climber
Pacific Grove, CA
|
|
|
Jul 27, 2011 - 11:13am PT
|
I was actually backpacking out by Lower Merced Pass Lake last month and came across this piece of metal NW of the lake. Myself and the people I was with lost the trail due to the snow cover and ended up wandering through some granite formations that normally would have been unvisited, and we found this sticking halfway out of the mud. Does it look like something related to the drug plane? What color was the plane?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!