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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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jghedge
On the web a personal agenda is seen through the actions. Speculations about the intentions behind the actions are often useless. Saying someone has a personal agenda is an action that is often used in politics to harm another person.
So yes, calling someone an idiot is an internet action showing a personal agenda.
And I will add: Saying someone is having a personal agenda is also an internet action showing a personal agenda.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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You're treating covert operations as if they can operate once they're compromised.
Covert operations?
Here's an article that outlines what Snowden as so far leaked:
link:What Snowden Leaked - Forbes Magazine
Perhaps you can count hacking Chinese systems as a covert action, but do you really believe China didn't already know about some of this?
So Joe, you keep saying that Snowden compromised covert operations. Can you back that up?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jghedge
You say: "Werner and Rsin both lay into me on a daily basis, and i give it back to them and I know them both - hundreds of pitches with both of them
Do they have personal agendas against me, or me against them? Hahahaha, that's a good one."
Comment:
As I see it, they have a personal agenda using the words. I guess that's where you started too - talking about other persons having a personal agenda (against you).
Have you changed your mind?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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So it's your speculation, Joe, that he compromised covert operations. You cannot back up your claim.
Got it.
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WBraun
climber
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There's a good percentage of our "elite" Americans running the USA govt. banking and politics infrastructure who are on Bath Salts .......
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jghedge
I said: " I guess that's where you started too - talking about other persons having a personal agenda (against you)."
You answered: "You guessed wrong."
What you said in the original post: "And please try to keep your ridiculous personal agendas off the thread, thanks."
Seeing what you wrote in your original post I have no reason to believe your "You guessed wrong"-conclusion. My strong hypothesis is that you are a liar in this case.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Republic magazine had an interesting editorial titled "Another Slap in the Face of Freedom":
While the world impatiently awaits a decision by Edward Snowden on where he will accept asylum, back here in America, we have been dealt another slap in the face of freedom by the nation’s surveillance court. What once used to serve as a check and balance system for preventing corruption among the ranks of the political system, has now taken a drastic turn in the opposite direction. In secretly held meetings the FISA court has issued rulings that have expanded the draconian police state practices of the NSA. The FISA court rulings can be viewed as nothing more than another slap in the face of freedom. This court, its officers and those they support, have placed themselves on a pedestal and consider themselves above reproach.
How long do you think it will be before another slap in the face of freedom takes the place of this one? We have grown fat, lazy and complacent in our acceptance of the wrong doings purported by those falsely elected to positions of power. Our own inactivity promotes a platform for their push for increased power. We are no longer a country of the people, by the people and for the people. We have morphed into a country governed and controlled by the favored few at the expense of the many.
NYT:
“In more than a dozen classified rulings, the nation’s surveillance court has created a secret body of law giving the National Security Agency the power to amass vast collections of data on Americans while pursuing not only terrorism suspects, but also people possibly involved in nuclear proliferation, espionage and cyberattacks, officials say.”
They will continue to deliver another slap in the face of freedom time and time again, while simultaneously painting portraits of patriots as traitors as they have with Edward Snowden, who in light of these facts, appears more and more like the ONLY American left with a spinal column keeping them erect.
NYT:
“The 11-member Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, known as the FISA court, was once mostly focused on approving case-by-case wiretapping orders. But since major changes in legislation and greater judicial oversight of intelligence operations were instituted six years ago, it has quietly become almost a parallel Supreme Court, serving as the ultimate arbiter on surveillance issues and delivering opinions that will most likely shape intelligence practices for years to come, the officials said.”
Take a look at the timeline included in that statement. The major changes took place 6 years ago, shortly after Obama took office after a dazzling display of denouncing the Bush administration for conducting illegal wiretapping adventures. The longer he remains in office the greater the chance for another slap in the face of freedom to occur.
NYT:
“Unlike the Supreme Court, the FISA court hears from only one side in the case — the government — and its findings are almost never made public. A Court of Review is empaneled to hear appeals, but that is known to have happened only a handful of times in the court’s history, and no case has ever been taken to the Supreme Court. In fact, it is not clear in all circumstances whether Internet and phone companies that are turning over the reams of data even have the right to appear before the FISA court.”
If you are still content to sit idly by and withstand these atrocities, then you will undoubtedly give nothing more than a passing glance to another slap in the face of freedom when it arrives sometime later this week.
#anotherslapinthefaceoffreedom"
This whole thing is a lot like an out of control trial rolling down the rails. Damned near impossible to stop. Unlike the train, no one in the know is divulging much, so we are all in the dark as to the true nature and extent of whats occuring.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jghedge:
"My strong hypothesis is that you are a liar in this case." I see you, your words/actions, nothing behind.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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There's a good percentage of our "elite" Americans running the USA govt. banking and politics infrastructure who are on Bath Salts
And you'd think they could afford cocaine.
Curt
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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I know, Lovegasoline. I will let him go... I just wanted to give him a chance.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Joe, I'm saying we don't know the full extent of what he did or did not disclose. To say he compromised covert ops is speculation, and I'm not going to take that bait.
Let's stick to what we know, and realize that we can speculate on the things we don't. That's fine by me, as long as we don't state what we don't know as fact.
BTW, I appreciate your efforts to outline your views on Snowden and the NSA actions, and I respect your opinions. It's certainly a fine line. Nonetheless, I don't trust the NSA any more than I trust the CEO of Goldman Sachs--I believe they are both in the same boat and will fight tooth-and-nail for the top 0.001%. And that means you and I are not on that boat.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Someone steals your credit card - would you cancel it? Apparently not, since you need proof that they're actually going to use it.
So, they take everybody's phone records, but say they won't use them unless they have a court order.
I suppose you need proof that they actually do get court orders, eh? But we'll never know, because it's all done in secret.
They have the ability to collect the content of all electronic communications, but hey, why would they? I suppose you need proof that they do indeed collect that data, which is illegal.
Oh, but Snowden did say they collect content. Gosh...
I just read Brazil is pissed as hell, and they might offer Snowden asylum. Man, this thing has legs.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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The metadata - content argument
"Why hasn't there been greater public outrage about the cynicism of the "just metadata" mantra?
One explanation is that most people imagine that metadata isn't really very revealing and so they're not unduly bothered by what NSA and its overseas franchises are doing. If that is indeed what they believe, then my humble suggestion is that they think again.
We already know how detailed an account of an individual's daily life can be constructed from metadata extracted from a mobile phone. What people may not realise is how informative the metadata extracted from their email logs can be.
In an attempt to illustrate this, MIT researcher Ethan Zuckerman published an extraordinary blog post last Wednesday. Entitled "Me and my metadata", it explains what happened when two of his students wrote a program to analyse his Gmail account and create from the metadata therein a visualisation of his social network (and of his private life), which he then publishes and discusses in detail. En passant, it's worth saying that this is a remarkably public-spirited thing to do; not many researchers would have Zuckerman's courage.
"The largest node in the graph, the person I exchange the most email with, is my wife, Rachel," he writes. "I find this reassuring, but [the researchers] have told me that people's romantic partners are rarely their largest node. Because I travel a lot, Rachel and I have a heavily email-dependent relationship, but many people's romantic relationships are conducted mostly face to face and don't show up clearly in metadata. But the prominence of Rachel in the graph is, for me, a reminder that one of the reasons we might be concerned about metadata is that it shows strong relationships, whether those relationships are widely known or are secret."
There's lots more in this vein. The graph reveals different intensities in his communications with various students, for example, which might reflect their different communication preferences (maybe they prefer face-to-face talks rather than email), or it might indicate that some are getting more supervisory attention than others. And so on. "My point here," Zuckerman writes, "isn't to elucidate all the peculiarities of my social network (indeed, analysing these diagrams is a bit like analysing your dreams – fascinating to you, but off-putting to everyone else). It's to make the case that this metadata paints a very revealing portrait of oneself."
Spot on. Now do a personal thought-experiment: add to your email metadata the data from your mobile phone and finally your clickstream – the log of every website you've visited, ever – all of which are available to the spooks without a warrant. And then ask yourself whether you're still unconcerned about GCHQ or the NSA or anyone else (for example the French Interior Ministry, when you're on vacation) scooping up "just" your metadata. Even though – naturally – you've nothing to hide. Not even the fact that you sometimes visit, er, sports websites at work? Or that you have a lot of email traffic with someone who doesn't appear to be either a co-worker or a family member?
How have we stumbled into this Orwellian nightmare? One reason is the naivete/ignorance of legislators who swallowed the spooks' line that metadata-hoovering was just an updating of older powers to access logs of (analogue) telephone calls. Another is that our political masters didn't appreciate the capability of digital computing and communications technology. A third is that democratic governments everywhere were so spooked by 9/11 that they were easy meat for bureaucratic empire-builders in the security establishment."
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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"The US supreme court will be asked to suspend the blanket collection of US telephone records by the FBI under an emergency petition due to be filed on Monday by civil rights campaigners at the Electronic Privacy Information Center (Epic).
This new legal challenge to the power of government agencies to spy on Americans follows the publication last month by the Guardian of a secret order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court ordering Verizon to hand over metadata from its phone records.
Previous attempts to appeal against the rulings of these courts have floundered due to a lack of public information about who might be caught up in the surveillance net, but the disclosure of specific orders by National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden has opened the door to a flurry of new challenges. It comes as a similar legal challenge was filed in Britain on Monday.
The latest from Epic asks the supreme court to rule that the NSA and FBI have stretched the law governing state intrusion to such a point that checks and balances put in by lawmakers have become meaningless.
Under section 1861 of Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (Fisa), authorities seeking such records from phone companies must show "that there are reasonable grounds to to believe that the tangible things sought are relevant to an authorized investigation".
But lawyers acting for Epic argue that the sweeping nature of Fisa court orders revealed by Snowden make a mockery of this "relevancy" clause.
"It is simply not possible that every phone record in the possession of a telecommunications firm could be relevant to an authorized investigation," says a copy of the petition seen by the Guardian.
"Such an interpretation of Section 1861 would render meaningless the qualifying phrases contained in the provision and eviscerate the purpose of the Act."
The petition seeks a "writ of mandamus" to immediately overturn the order of the lower court, presided on in secret by judge Roger Vinson, or alternatively a "writ of certiorari" to allow supreme court justices to review the decision.
Epic lawyers also argue the original order is unconstitutional because it gives too much power to federal agencies, which could be abused to interfere in other areas of government.
"Because the NSA sweeps up judicial and congressional communications, it inappropriately arrogates exceptional power to the executive branch," says the petition."
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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If you send a letter by post in America, will it then be read by some Security Dep because it is sent by a public postal service?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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It seems to me like everyone is a potential terrorist in America at present, every American citizen. Are you watched and listened to if you travel on an American train or a bus, using public transport?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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If a known terrorist mails you a letter, does the gov't have any right to intercept and read it?
do you bother reading your own drivel? a "known" terrorist should be in jail, right? and if they are not a "known" terorist, then what the hell are they?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nobody talks about the more effective ways to prevent terrorism
Like ceasing to support undemocratic kings and dictators in foreign lands, quitting enabling Israel do violate human rights with impunity, and quit forcing little countries to do our will.
We push our weight around everywhere and have hypocritical double standards and we expect everyone to just bend over and take it. They won't. Even Europe and Latin America are getting pissed off at us now
peace
karl
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