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New Age II
climber
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Jan 26, 2012 - 06:54am PT
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Chapeau... M. Jean-Pierre Banville
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ezy
Mountain climber
Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 06:55am PT
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thank you, Jean Gurtorju.
Article by Jean-Pierre Banville is very interesting and I agree
molto gentile ;-)
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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 26, 2012 - 07:13am PT
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if something similar to the compressor route would be done now many of us would agree to go up and chop everything; but doing something similar on an 40-year-old route is a nonsense
This is the point.
I guess that nearly everybody agrees that Maestri made a mistake.
IMVHO K&K made a mistake too.
Also, I find that the argument about the "theft of the future" is pointless.
The whole history of climbing is about striving to climb harder, in better style, faster, lighter, and so on, than previous generations.
That's what happened (and it's still going on) on Torre, too.
How many future-stealing controversial routes are there in climbing history?
How many of them have been erased?
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 08:18am PT
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How many future-stealing controversial routes are there in climbing history?
How many of them have been erased?
the real question is how many of them, these brave two lads, have *unbolted* AT HOME, stating their own ethics, before going abroad to teach ethics to the natives?
*edited, bad english, sorry*
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dags1972
Mountain climber
Alpicella
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Jan 26, 2012 - 08:47am PT
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Good question uli!
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d_ice
Ice climber
Tùrin
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:05am PT
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Yes, great Uli!
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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:10am PT
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uli, I believe that chopping the Compressor Route was wrong.
Who did it, frankly, doesn't matter: American, Canadian, Argentinean, Italian, or any self-appointed "local" or whoever.
It was wrong. Period.
BTW world is getting smaller and smaller: what does "AT HOME" mean?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:13am PT
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the real question is how many of them, these brave two lads, have chipped AT HOME, stating their own ethics, before going abroad to teach ethics to the natives?
That is NOT a good question. It is a poor inference that Hayden & Jason are route chippers.
A baseless debasing. Just as lame as the attempts to portray Rolo as an imperious Demi God. Try again.
Here is a question... Why do some Italian Climbers think American disrespect for the Compressor Route translates to disrespect of Italy, Italians and even Maestri's previous accomplishments.
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Conrad
climber
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:13am PT
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@lovegasoline click on the image an a larger version shows up
@kinobi Jay Smith, Steve Gerberding and I climbed Badlands on Torre Egger during the summer of 94 - 95. We retreated in 93 after getting weathered off. We left the ropes we used in place and came back two seasons later and completed the route. We used our ropes and on the way down cleaned them. We gave them to a climber in Peurto Natales. Thanks for asking and I'm as guilty as Maestri for using technology to ascend mountains. The line of what is acceptable changes with each generation. New meets old in a Titanic clash.
edit: We placed three 1/4 inch (6mm) bolts.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:15am PT
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Some matters that should be held apart.
Maestri as a climber: He was an excellent climber for his time. I have heard Norwegian climbers who were pushing the limits of what was possible in Norway at the time, and who saw him climbing in the Dolomites, tell a story about one of the strongest and best climbers they have ever seen.
The bolting of the Compressor route on CT: Leo Dickinson is telling the story.
The chopping of the Compressor route by K&K. My view: If doing this was an action growing from their own inner conviction, I think their action was fair enough if they accept the consequences they are now experiencing. Not good if they were primarily errandboys who have been talked into doing what they did by older climbers with a conviction. If so, I guess they are now having a steep learning curve.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:17am PT
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a question, even more interesting, arise from the *obvious* answer => 0 <= to the previous:
WHO "suggested" the two reckless lad to act that way?
maybe someone who was not brave enough to follow facts after his words?
shame on him!
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:21am PT
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@philo
why that exact bolt ladder of the many hundreds in the world? why abroad? why not starting at home to show "the way" to us all to follow?
why don't you understand that is the double measure, not the *unbolting*, that is disturbing?
*edited*
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giggio
climber
Milano, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:24am PT
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philo:
Here is a question... Why do some Italian Climbers think American disrespect for the Compressor Route translates to disrespect of Italy, Italians and even Maestri's previous accomplishments.
I think this isn't a good question as well.
Some Italian (and also many non-Italian climbers) think (I... uh... ehm... chopped! the word "American" because I think the nationality of the climbers who did that doesn't really matter) translate disrespect for the Compressor Route not only to disrespect of Italy, Italians and Maestri's previous accomplishments (which could be quite a limited matter), but to disrespect of mountain, history, and people in general (which is by far a greater topic).
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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:25am PT
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That is NOT a good question. It is a poor inference that Hayden & Jason are route chippers. Come on philo, uli meant "chopped", not "chipped"... it was a typo.
However I reckon his question is not a good question (see my reply above).
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:26am PT
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I think of "chipping" as breaking and making holds for easier climbing. Like the infamous travesty of the Jardine Traverse.
You may have been referring to "chipping" as pulling bolts.
Perhaps I was confused by your meaning.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:28am PT
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@the cad
I see your points and, and I can agree, but I can't refrain to think about the imperialistic attitudes of yankees, their way to go abroad kick everybody's ass (and not even being imputable as in the Cermis case) can't go out of my mind
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:30am PT
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@philo you're right
sorry my english is bad
i meant removing bolts
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:37am PT
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@giggio
you should remember the context:
the two lads didn't act in the void
Rolo obsessive campaign against Maestri and that precise bold ladder is the context
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 26, 2012 - 09:47am PT
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I see your points and, and I can agree, but I can't refrain to think about the imperialistic attitudes of yankees, their way to go abroad kick everybody's ass (and not even being imputable as in the Cermis case) can't go out of my mind
And you know Uli you shouldn't. America under Bush behaved badly the world over.
Not all Americans are warmongering imperialists. I am not and I am pretty sure Hayden is not. And that Kruk dude is Canadian and you know what they say about the Cannucks.
More Americans than you know have regretted the lousy actions of our earlier rogue government. I fought against the Bush Neo-Cons and their despicable agenda from the very beginning. I was labeled an anti-patriot and worse because of my opposition. Even from my own Republican Father. Some of us Americans believe it is important, vital even, to stand for what we believe in, accepting responsibility for our actions, and speak truth to power.
This "Yank Down" of Maestri's "Pressure Pins" is not really a symptom of aggressive imperialism by North Americans. Though in all honesty, I can easily see why it could be interpreted that way.
I do think too much of the reactions on both sides to this controversial subject are passion driven and without sufficient evidence or information to form a proper judgement.
Uli, none of this happened in a void without context. The Context has been known for decades.
Hayden is from what i've heard exceptional well versed in the history and the context of Patagonian climbing. So is Rolo. But to assume that Rolo played the role of Svengalli and pressured K&K to do his dirty work is absurd. That is not the Rolando I know. Nor does it sound like Jason or Hayden would be easily made pawns of. They decide for themselves only.
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