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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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Where would we be if bigfoot, Sasquatch, and the AB were literate? Maybe they have a language they don't deign to share with us?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 17, 2009 - 03:29pm PT
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"What always makes me sad, is that so many people will never see the beauty and transformational potential of all great scripture, Christian and otherwise, because they get so hung up on history."
My sense of this is that the most limiting factor is that people so rarely get past their evaluating minds, that part of that always wants to qantify, measure, dissect, and so forth. Insofar that you have no separation form that aspect of mind, you can't seem the limitations, nor yet the compulsion to try and knead all that is experienced into manageable "things" that, in turn, can be evaluated, measured, dissected. This is "knowing" to most people.
On the other hand we have Song of Songs, the Beatitudes and Sermon on the Mount, and we have amongst us those who can never get past trying to measure and evaluate these as they do other "things" in the hopes of discovering the truth or the meaning. Moreover, it rarely occurs to these people that said truth is something beyond a subjective amalgam, a feeling, a mood.
JL
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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That stuff is in a different category. Beautiful poetery, as i've always insisted. My beef is why people need to take biblical allegoreis as geologic/historic time, etc.
And Howeird, "apes"? are you presuming to know the nature of Sasquatch? I bet you've never met Paganmonkeyboy....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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And you've seen them not having any?
Neandrathals lived in similar places with limited technology.
There is a lot of conjecture that they 'must' be primates ( they used to say that about bears, too). The only commmon link from people who have claimed to see them is that they are hairy and bipedal. Hence, since we tend to anthropomorphize almost anything, (like the construct of 'God') they must be primates, or as you say, "Apes".
I don't think that's very strong evidence, do you? Not that you nor I are apt to prove either way, but i think a more open view is needed (if we are going to consider them at all) than to shoehorn them into one of the existing categories,just to make it easy on ourselves.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
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Could be, who knows?
Don't they pretty much have to be mammals though, what else has fur?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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Either there is a God or there isn't! If there isn't, then the people say what is right or wrong, and put the offenders in prison. But not all are caught or serve any or all of there time. No need to swear to tell the truth, the whole truth so help you God! What justice is this? None, fear of jail, what a joke! Anarchy!
If there is a God, we are all guilty, and there is complete forgiveness through Jesus only!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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But if there isn't, then we're not, and there's no need to get all worked up about it.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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You realize followers of Christ aren't the only ones who believe in creation.
I have to agree that there are groups that make a campaign for orbiting so much around the 'ism of creation. I would like to add a couple of thoughts to
the conversation.
First, the shortness of time regarding creation to present. With regard to eternity, any mark you make on a time line, six thousand, six million, six billion, six trillion, all shrink to a speck on a line that in infinite (remove time, as we know it from the equation). It seems that the discussion of fossils and evolution usually has a "so there!" quality to it. When, many, many scientists actually believe, if not in the God of the Bible, a Creator. Please respect this. Just reacting is really expressing a lack of thinking.
Second, the point of the Genesis account. The point is not to give a detailed account of the process of the creation of all things. It's just not.
God was quickly getting to a point. If the point was to tell the mysteries of the creation, we poor Bible toters would not be able to drive our cars to church with the thing sitting on the front seat.
The point is: redemption. It's that God made everything, people were given free will, people were given a circumstance that would allow them to actually make a choice. The temptation was "... you will be like God ..."
We proved ourselves to just shuck off God when given only one choice. Some people call this "original sin", but that term is not in the New or Old Testament. We do have a free will, we do have the daily opportunity to choose. We can't redeem any of it with our own actions: Good deeds, good Karma, nothing will offset the results of our actions. We need forgiveness.
That is the point of the Genesis account, and the first point of the promise of the Redeemer. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Muslims all believe in creation.
Following Christ is not about self-improvement, self-enlightenment, self-anything. It's about losing yourself ("He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it ..."). What does this even mean?
I don't think it means taking on every cause or controversy we don't agree with. You're right in an important way, as I see it. I read a great book a couple of months ago, I would recommend: "The Myth of a Christian Nation".
It's a wake-up call for Christians who are walking in the direction of merging politics into their walk with God. I am of the belief this is not
how we're supposed to be directing our efforts. There are too many hospitals full of sick people who need love and attention. There are people in daily life that don't need to argue about all the 'isms. They need to see the face of God's lovingkindness. I don't believe in watering down the Bible. Forgiveness isn't "just letting go" of something. It is much, much bigger. I do care about the findings, I think they are part of the miracle.
According to Genesis, something happened before the appearing of man. Something cataclysmic. The answers to that long q.a. simply don't offer redemption. Does this mean no God? pffft. I don't think God objects to us
trying to find the answers. Because, when man seeks these answers with humility, they do find God. None of us were born believers. There was a time I did not. I didn't drink any Kool Aid or have someone shove it down
my mind either. God is real. It's probably the reason people struggle so darned hard to disprove this. Otherwise, who would even care? But, people
know they have to make a choice. Isn't that amazing? (C.S. Lewis wrote another good read: Mere Christianity)
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 17, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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Top Ten Reasons God Won't Get Tenure
1. Only published one book.
2. It was in Hebrew.
3. There is doubt He wrote it Himself.
4. When one experiment went awry, He tried to cover it up by drowning all the subjects.
5. When sample subjects do not behave as predicted, He deletes the whole sample
6. He rarely comes to class-just tells His students to read the Book.
7. It is rumored that He sometimes lets His Son teach the class.
8. Although He only has 10 requirements, His students often fail His tests.
9. He expelled His first two students for learning.
10. His office hours are infrequent and usually held on a mountain top.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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Peter unfortunately leaves out two reasons why God may get tenure.
1. Its citation index is very high.
2. It has unparalleled ability to get grants and raise funds .
Here, however, we have such a very long list of living gods we may have to give up monotheism.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Even our thoughts can be evil to God, shall I go on...
God's standards are not are own, NO ONE can keep the whole law at all times!(see Bible)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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"What justice is this? None, fear of jail, what a joke! Anarchy!"
No, Gob, we have a responsiblity to be good! We have to do this ourselves without help from god, that's the beauty of it!
Howierd, my point with this is that if there is any thing to this talk or unknown bipedal whatevers, that continually elude us, as they seem to do, we're going to have to think differently to find them. Though we need to start from what we know, like; they probably breath air, and if they are furry, they are probably related, at least, to mammals. Beyond that we might want to keep an open mind.
In my own old field of paleontology there would have been a lot of roadblocks, if Formanifea studiers had first found Conodonts, diatom, or say ostracods, and assumed that they must be sarcodines (Amoeba) because thats what the disoverers were familiar with.
i'm not really going to hold my breath about mystery bipedal, pongoids hominoids, though I'll always notice what comes up. I just think that the approach I mentione is a metaphor for other things, well, anything short of liebacking an offwidth...
I used to really follow this unknown animal stuff when i was a pre/teen. There are some writings by Roy chapman Andrews about this that used to move me a lot.
Funny that you mentioned breasts, ( guess we're wired that way) as a kid, I remember reading an acoount of an encounter with an 'Orang Pendak', an alleged unknown homonid in somewhere like Java or Sumatra. ~"The females had log pendulous breast, that when statled they would throw over their shoulders, before running away." I think that that was in the book , "On the track of unknown Animals" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Track_of_Unknown_Animals
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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Howwierd, I really love your brave, thinking mind. I mean this whole-heartedly. I am in real (I don't even know how to find the words)... in tremendous respect, for anyone, anyone who will ask the hard questions. Awesome!!
I was talking with my son about this. He was a serious atheist (he is now a believer, I had nothing to do with it). I told him,
(this was just a couple of nights ago) he was fearless enough, honest enough, to ask them.
I have just too much respect to fire off a rote answer, if not answer, with respect, a response or offering to you.
Sorry I dropped out of the picture there, too. I went up to the FaceLift and the Bachar thing in Yosemite. Also been going to school and working full time. (sorry if it sounds like an excuse). I want to really think about what you are asking today. You are a courageous question-asker.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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"No, Gob, we have a responsiblity to be good! We have to do this ourselves without help from god, that's the beauty of it!"
If someone steals your stuff, or kills your wife, son, or daughter what do you say?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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I think you get it Gobee!
I have to be part of the system to deal with those possibilities. My daughter is too important to leave to ephemeral superstitous nonsense.
Thank you.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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Hi All :D
Back home and getting ready to hit road yet again in the next hour. Just wanted to see what's happening on this fun, thought provoking Thread.
Jaybro, you said Song of Songs and Sermon on the Mount beautiful poetry. Song of Songs may be, but Sermon on the Mt. to me is totally about how to live life here on this planet in harmony with God, humankind and yourself.
Largo, could you please be more definitive in your post of 10/17 at 1:29, especially the last paragraph. I can't figure out what you are saying and I want to understand what you are saying. I would appreciate it. Only way to learn.....
Peace all, lynne
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:46pm PT
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Lynne, much of the best poetry is about stuff like that. that does not diminish it's importance or authentiticity.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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My answer would be what Jesus and Stephen said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do!"
Why, because God first forgave us, and calls us to do the same! We have the blessed hope! And we will be with each other in Heaven!
Then we can live for God and try to do the right thing, knowing when we fail we are still forgiven, DO IT FOR LOVE!
Edit; Trust in God! God is the final judge!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 17, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Thanks, Jaybro.....That makes sense. :D
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