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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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^^^Thank you.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Nor is thirsty just floating around the cosmos waiting for a mind in which to host its experience.
Excellent.
The internal experience of being thirsty is like the internal experience of being in my car and the gas gauge light goes red to tell my meat brain its thirsty. No one outside my car sees red, or feels thirsty. Its an internal experience and inherently private, unless shared. But it is 100% physical.
Excellent. 2/2!
cf: And when it comes to Systems (yet another "level of explanation") in addition to particles and forces, it is 100% mechanistic as well as 100% physical.
"Nor is thirsty." Nor is angry. Nor is scared. Nor is horny. Nor is remembering. Nor is thinking. lol
...
btw, (1) I couldn't find "grock" in the dictionary, but I did reaffirm that "grok" means to understand (something) deeply or profoundly (and not simply to grasp). (2) I just happen to follow @grok in the twitterverse - which I think is a supercool name (I'd like to have it).
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Grok
Top 20 Geek Novels
A survey by Jack schofield
1. The HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy -- Douglas Adams 85% (102) 2. Nineteen Eighty-Four -- George Orwell 79% (92) 3. Brave New World -- Aldous Huxley 69% (77) 4. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? -- Philip Dick 64% (67) 5. Neuromancer -- William Gibson 59% (66) 6. Dune -- Frank Herbert 53% (54) 7. I, Robot -- Isaac Asimov 52% (54) 8. Foundation -- Isaac Asimov 47% (47) 9. The Colour of Magic -- Terry Pratchett 46% (46) 10. Microserfs -- Douglas Coupland 43% (44) 11. Snow Crash -- Neal Stephenson 37% (37) 12. Watchmen -- Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons 38% (37) 13. Cryptonomicon -- Neal Stephenson 36% (36) 14. Consider Phlebas -- Iain M Banks 34% (35) 15. Stranger in a Strange Land -- Robert Heinlein 33% (33) 16. The Man in the High Castle -- Philip K Dick 34% (32) 17. American Gods -- Neil Gaiman 31% (29) 18. The Diamond Age -- Neal Stephenson 27% (27) 19. The Illuminatus! Trilogy -- Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson 23% (21) 20. Trouble with Lichen - John Wyndham 21% (19)
How many have you read?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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DMT: The internal experience of being thirsty is like the internal experience of being in my car and the gas gauge light goes red to tell my meat brain its thirsty. No one outside my car sees red, or feels thirsty. Its an internal experience and inherently private, unless shared. But it is 100% physical. There is no magic involved, unless and until you can prove it.
You think . . . you believe . . . you project . . . you perceive.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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You think you believe? Ask the Wizard.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
The ideas are all good fun to play around with.
To actually believe that external reality is a mental construct?
It seems to be the height of hubris and egocentricity.
But, then I just made that sh#t up.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mark, I grok your vibe brother.
The ideas are all good fun to play around with.
ideas seeking expression
To actually believe that external reality is a mental construct?
we'll skip the next sentence.
But, then I just made that sh#t up.
Yeah, the external reality. Wasn't it fun? I've always said that if you're external reality that you created isn't fun then make up some other sh#t.
;)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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but it's worth noting that physical reality, as described by measurements, has no "secondary qualities" (like color, feeling of warmth and cold, etc.)
Possibly because they aren't 'qualities' at all, but rather experiences from interactions with the physical world. As pointed out, there are no independent 'qualities' of warmth or thirst outside of a body/brain/mind experiencing warmth or thirst. In some ways it's an entirely odd objectification of experience to consider them so.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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I grok your vibe, brother.
You, John Coltrane and The Cool! That's a keeper, brother.
A worthy addition to the Geek Beat lexicon.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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So does the dentist writing a novel
Who's that?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Where I believe you get hung up is . . .
This is a deep and tricky subject harking back . . .
. . . which is the earmark of someone who cannot follow nor yet understand the argument . . .
If I had used these demeaning phrases when I taught math my students would have hit me with a 2X4. And I would have deserved it.
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WBraun
climber
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Take a break jgill
You're letting this stuff, and your mind emotionally get to you.
This isn't a classroom either .......
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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This isn't a classroom either .......
It seems it sometimes is, with Professor Wizard at the chalkboard telling us the arguments are too subtle for us to understand.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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It's strange so many just don't seem to get it... you taste chocolate. Okay, that's the result of processes of a chemical and what might be called mechanical process in the brain. But wait, what is experiencing that taste? What is critiquing and contemplating and judging that experience? What is the deeply personal self affirming entity that tastes and judges and critiques experience itself? The mystery of this process brings one to their knees unless they're not paying attention or busy hiding behind the comfort of purely material functions, but then again some just don't get it.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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The mystery of this process brings one to their knees unless they're not paying attention or busy hiding behind the comfort of purely material functions, but then again some just don't get it
Well sure, there's a mechanical process that leads to a subjective experience. (Can you have a subjective experience without a mechanical origin? Even meditation involves a functioning brain.) Happens all the time. No one's denying that. If the contemplation of this moment-to-moment phenomena brings you to your knees I'm sure the Wizard will be pleased. Especially if you genuflect.
And yes, there hasn't been a definitive explanation of this phenomena. Especially if one thinks of the objective and the subjective as two sides of the same philosophical coin.
And Dennett's Folly flies in the face of the Hard Problem.
By the way that deeply personal self is an illusion according to some here.
But not me.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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It is hard to argue we are not a master of sorts... of causation, science, mechanisms (mechanics), vision, ambition, creative collaboration, swinging for the fences, all the above.
But we could not be a "master of sorts" without the predicate order of the universe, a universe in which the consciousness we enjoy is written into that order and in that is a mystery and its implications we should be careful not to dismiss.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The mystery of this process brings one to their knees unless they're not paying attention or busy hiding behind the comfort of purely material functions, but then again some just don't get it.
talk about being romantic...
but then, it is all the rage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_closure_(philosophy);
This caught my eye,
"It cannot be simply taken for granted that the human reasoning faculty is naturally suited for answering philosophical questions..."
as if we have answered any philosophical question, that is not the point of philosophy, to answer questions! we still bring up any number or ancient philosophers as if their thinking is at all relevant to any modern question in philosophy. (Mind your responses to this!).
I have linked this before, but it is especially relevant to this last plea of Paul's:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_mysterianism
The term "new mysterianism" has been extended by some writers to encompass the wider philosophical position that humans do not have the intellectual ability to solve (or comprehend the answers to) many hard problems, not just the problem of consciousness, at a scientific level.
how we arrive at that conclusion is a mystery, since philosophy has famously failed to resolve anything at all regarding how science is done, it probably will fail to say what science could do, but it will definitely have an opinion regarding what science is doing.
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