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jstan
climber
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Karl:
I don't feel misunderstood at all. "I am not proud, or tired." (As you can tell, I think Arlo Guthrie hit very closely to the essential requirement for being human.) Gosh, even being ignored does not bother me. Besides, I am quite used to that.
What does bother me? To see people failing to rise to their true potential. Tell me people who are able to go god awful distances above their protection just to see if they can do it, are not incredibly able. Go ahead. Tell me. A little disturbed, perhaps. But if it rings their bell, who am I to complain?
So here we have people of that sort who have almost no understanding of how to relate to another person. Now I was in that place once so I have a little understanding. Here is what I can tell you. There is no need for it to be this way. None at all. I will tell you the story of how I made the transition.
In the late sixties all I saw in the Gunks was ever worsening destruction of both the rock and of the vegetation. Right at the start I got really clear with myself that only one thing was important, that the area and the people be supported. Nothing else mattered. Even in the slightest. One bright spring day I put blue ribbons on the laurel so I could stand back to see if trails might possibly protect the vegetation. The next day Richard Petritz and three of his friends who had taken down all the ribbons, came up to me and ripped me a new one asking just what the hell I thought I was doing. I had known unilaterally modifying a shared resource, even momentarily, was the biggest sin a person could commit. I think we all know that. When he let go at me lots of things went through my mind but I was clear I did not want the Gunks to suffer, and so had to respond real time. It popped into my head, "I need to stand in Richard's shoes, NOW." I managed to do that at least partially and over the years I was forgiven my many errors. And there were many. I am very clear that Richard acted as a great supporter of the cliff and of its protection when he and his friends acted as they did. He taught me the most important lesson of my life.
We need to stand in the shoes of our friends and we need to leave room for ALL.
It can be done, and you are the people to do it.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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John, is this new route "Growing Up", "a pox in Vulgaria"?
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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incredible thread
great discussion everyone!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dingus, as Bob has noted, I don't possess the stature to carry something as heavy as a 'moral imperative' - I'm simply selfish, or what Bob seems to call an elitist. But I actually consider myself more misanthropic than 'elitist' - which always somehow sounds as if I may be a better climber than I am. And, however attractive that idea, the truth is I really just don't care for most of these folks, let alone suffering the idea of bolting rocks as an open invitation for the hordes to come climbing. There's something horribly and horizontally pedestrian about it all to me, regardless of who does what at the top of our already quite large pyramid of climbers.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I wonder how they do it in..
FINLAND!!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Wildlife managers use licensing to limit hunting of "scarce resoures". If FA's are endangered in YV, perhaps one should have to apply to a lottery system to put one up.
Won't prevent extinction, but might delay it a bit.
:-)
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Whoa, talk about splitting hairs.
Now Dirty Kenny is saying that it would somehow be better if the route had been retro bolted than rap bolted?
Better for who? Shouldn't it be up to the first ascentionist what they want their experience to be?
From a rock/enviromental perspective, the two approachs are equal.
And I'd suspect they are exactly equal for people repeating the route. Once enough bolts are in to make a route "safe", I'm pretty sure most people aren't going to care how they got there.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Bolts have very little environmental impact, realistically. The potential impact that is most concerning to me is people deciding rap-bolting any big wall is appropriate, and then having some of the cleaner areas being overwhelmed by climbers who don't really care about the stone or their impact.
Probably won't happen. I hope.
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jstan
climber
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Tradman:
My adherence to a general principle does not by extrapolation equal my condemnation of a specific. As has been pointed out many times here, condemnation of a specific requires many competing factors be carefully weighed. My point is modification of a shared resource has to be considered extremely important and should be weighed before the fact. (What I personally would do in any situation is in practical terms, simply irrelevant.)
Oh, I think neither of us has flung pooh.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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This thread is giving me nightmares!
This morning I dreamt that I was forced to down solo Growing Up so that others could chop it behind me. The lower half of it was filled with all kinds of contrived bolt placements and artificial holds. Half way down the waist band of my harness came undone inexplicably (why was I wearing a harness soloing anyway). When I got to the bottom The Archers of Loaf had just released a hit song that was playing on every car radio that drove by. The bottom of the route came out of an opera house. I woke up in a sweat. What does it all mean?!
I think I need to quit ST for sanity's sake. Aw, who am I kidding.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Back here in the East they built a golf course, a BIG hotel and a bunch of condos right up against one of our premier cliffs. The hotel has No Parking signs for climbers by the trailhead. They do graciously allow us to park by the dumpsters. All the bolts on the entire cliff wouldn't fill one garbage can in that big hotel yet we still to this day have bitter bolt wars. Where were the bolt choppers when that hotel and the golf course were going up? why don't they chop the hotel? the only logical answer is that climbers as a whole are insane and bolt choppers in praticuler are generaly cowards. They usualy work on rainy days and often don't own up to their destruction but mostly they pick on something small that they think they can get away with......
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jstan
climber
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Whitehorse?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Tradman,
That's the scale and scope argument again. Climbers clearly didn't control the property in question anymore and likely couldn't stop the development anymore than they could keep condos at a five mile distance from Red Rock. One doesn't really have much to do with the other or, if you think they are that tightly coupled, then if anything I'd turn it around and say if you don't have a problem with the bolts then what is your problem with the resort? Pretty much the same fun-first mindset at the cliff.
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jstan
climber
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In the 60's climbers could probably have bought the land the hotel is on presently. There are lots of worthwhile things one can use to beat one's self up on. This is not one of them.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Yes Whitehorse; I think the reasons are much more allong the lines that it is easier to fight other climbers than it is to take on real estate developers.. healy, how can you compare a bucket of bolts to a resort with a bad septic that stinks mightly on hot days? The bolt choppers really are cowards and bullys. The mark of a bully is allways that they choose the fights they know they can either win or at least not get themself hurt.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: That's the scale and scope argument again. Climbers clearly didn't control the property in question anymore and likely couldn't stop the development anymore than they could keep condos at a five mile distance from Red Rock. One doesn't really have much to do with the other or, if you think they are that tightly coupled, then if anything I'd turn it around and say if you don't have a problem with the bolts then what is your problemwith the resort? Pretty much the same fun-first mindset at the cliff.
Joe...take your train of thought to were it is really is needed in the Valley...starting with Camp Four, El Cap or Everest Base Camp and the many other areas that climbers have polluted and soiled....come back when your cure all the problems climbers have create there.
This one route is not the demise of climbing or all of it
resources. You continue to blame the safe crowd (sport climbers) for Armageddon. Doom and Gloom seems to be your style.
People are going to recreated and hopefully used the resources responsibly and with other users needs and wants.
Did Scott & the other folks who established routes on SFHD do this...makes one wonder...doesn't it??
Just because you have a certain myopic look at how people should protect and climb...doesn't mean others have to follow.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Tradman, with no problem at all, though I'd have been fighting both if I were a local. Exactly the same question if someone came and threw six via ferratas up the rock - how can you compare a small coil of wire and a few wrungs to a resort? I think they are all problems, I just try to argue each in it's appropriate context.
Edit: Bob, I already gave my opinion to your last question upthread a bit.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Many of us try, to greater or lesser extents to contribute positively to climbing, the environment, and related issues.
The sticking point is often in what we believe "others" should be doing.
We're not all on the same path but often on the same stone. How to move on together?
Peace
Karl
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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healyje, your crag already has a via ferrata on it.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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I guess I don't get what you are saying Joe...are you blaming the use of bolts as climbers having too much fun...or blaming the use of bolts for the crowds at cliffs...or blaming the use of rap-down bolts as the demise of climbing or blaming the use of bolts for the future via-ferrata's that have not been built yet??
And just what make a few via's a bad thing??
Have you ever driven a highway into a national park or wilderness area?? Do you have a problem with Handicap access built ramps/trails or roads that maybe be considered unsightly?
A simple yes or no for the above question!
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