Is Religion Doing More Harm Than Good These Days?(OT)

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rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Jun 20, 2017 - 08:04pm PT

My skin color? I'm white. In the US, where 150 years after slavery ended, median white family wealth is still 13 times median black family wealth, who says my skin color isn't right? A lot of Trump supporters seem to believe that a lot of people are saying that.

My daughter's skin color? She's black. In the US, who says her skin color isn't "right"? I don't expect that you'll learn that in an art history class or a science class :-)

Where am I going with it?

Humans form beliefs about the results of other people's skin color creation processes using the same human belief processes that we use to form beliefs about the results of other people's belief creation processes. But ultimately we're humans, and we didn't create either of those processes. Those processes create different results in different people, based on, well, differences. Genetic differences, environmental differences, informational differences.

But maybe we can understand those human processes. With understanding our human skin color creation processes, we've done pretty well. With understanding our human belief creation processes, we still have a ways to go. As Paul humbly noted.

Mark Force

Trad climber

Ashland, Oregon

Jun 20, 2017 - 08:09pm PT

Thank God for Richard Dawkins

I spit my beer....

sempervirens

climber

Jun 20, 2017 - 08:14pm PT

You sure seem to care. If your answer to the original post is a simple: yes.

Then why do you persist posting on this thread?

Personally it seems you are doing what many religious people do- you are seeking affirmation from others in order to satiate your inner need to belong to a group..

Much like any member of a tribe

If you are atheist- then this is a waste of what little time you have in this finite life...

Unfounded assumptions. If religion is harmful some atheists may want to alleviate that harm by convincing others to drop their religious beliefs. And that wouldn't necessitate anything to do with a tribe. Why can't an atheist simply enjoy a good debate? Why did you make up these assumptions?

sempervirens

climber

Jun 20, 2017 - 08:25pm PT

That an area of the brain lights up in the course of such an experience is so far from understanding the experience as to be laughable.

Well if that explanation is laughable, why isn't the story of Noah's Ark laughable? Sure the Bible stories can reveal some truths, as you've said. And if so then they are not to be taken literally, but rather to be understood as symbolic, right. Otherwise, the ark story would be pretty laughable. But would you believe the Bible's truths, as you call them, while laughing at a scientific argument that can demonstrate a relationship in the physical world? What does the Bible have that science does not? It has blind faith.

sempervirens

climber

Jun 20, 2017 - 08:31pm PT

I thought it was the science types who's unique argument was "you're wrong." :-)

Yep, you're absolutely right.

Paul, I debunked that argument three pages back. It makes no sense at all. Please go back and read my comment.

sempervirens

climber

Jun 20, 2017 - 08:41pm PT

Yes. What is beauty anyway? How do we explain it without recognizing the exceptional nature of humanity with its desire to know and as well, the strange delight we take in our senses, a delight that's extraneous to the survival dictates of evolution and something we also take delight in growing and encouraging. The question is why do humans have preferences for the things they see and why is there such enjoyment in the perception of those things? It is philosophy and myth and religion that bring us closer to any understanding of questions like this, questions that science seems incapable of answering.

Your logic is flawed. Science and religion are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Plenty of religious believers also have faith in science. And those who don't believe in religion are in no way less capable of understanding beauty or the natural world. The only thing believers have that non-believers don't have is ... religious belief. And you have no way of testing that religious belief. That could put religious people at a big disadvantage because their holy books were written, translated, and re-written, hundreds of times, over thousands of years, by hundreds of different humans. That could lead to some problems couldn't it?

WBraun

climber

Jun 20, 2017 - 08:50pm PT

And you have no way of testing that religious belief.

Only a complete ignorant self-righteous total fool says this ......

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Jun 20, 2017 - 08:55pm PT

.. the exceptional nature of humanity .. the strange delight we take in our senses ..

What exactly is strange about it? You seem to take its strangeness as an aspect of reality that you've marvelously perceived, rather than an aspect of reality that you've failed to understand. The only reason that it seems strange to you is because you don't understand it, but you take our human ununderstanding and transform it into a belief that confirms your belief in our human exceptionalism.

Not understanding it, the only explanation I can come up with is that humans are exceptional! I can't even imagine any other explanation. Human belief processes at their finest.

Why? Might that human belief process of transforming our ununderstanding of our belief and behavior processes into a positive confirmation of our own marvelousness have some evolutionary advantage? Why are humans such experts at confirmation bias? Maybe if you don't believe that you're so marvelously right, you might not be so motivated to act according to your beliefs.

sempervirens

climber

Jun 20, 2017 - 08:59pm PT

[quote]Only a complete ignorant self-righteous total fool says this ......
Here[/quote

good comeback Werner.

Can you test whether Jesus said what is in the Bible? How bout the old testament?

WBraun

climber

Jun 20, 2017 - 09:03pm PT

Do the proper work and test it without running your mouth.

All spiritual science is testable .....

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Jun 20, 2017 - 09:04pm PT

Right? If god had wanted you to have a mouth, she would have given you one. You just don't know the right way to be a human.

paul roehl

Boulder climber

california

Jun 20, 2017 - 09:06pm PT

The problem isn't my logic but rather your reading comprehension:

I never said science and religion are mutually exclusive.

I never said that those not believing in religion are not capable of understanding beauty.

It is those of a scientific bent on this thread who are continually declaring the fallibility of religious belief.

You imagine a stereotype when you make the statement above.

I'm an atheist .

But I'm not so shallow and ill informed to not understand the value of religion and faith and mythological ideas that still speak to us in a powerful manner and I certainly have more respect for those of faith than the arrogance of those in science who have no idea of the value of what they disparage.

sempervirens

climber

Jun 20, 2017 - 09:07pm PT

Do the proper work and test it without running your mouth.

All spiritual science is testable .....

Hah! have you ever even climbed el cap?

WBraun

climber

Jun 20, 2017 - 09:22pm PT

paul roehl is always a good man .....

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Jun 20, 2017 - 09:34pm PT

paul roehl is always a good man

I believe it. Like you. I'd probably say good human though :-)

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jun 21, 2017 - 06:24am PT

"But I'm not so shallow and ill informed to not understand the value of religion and faith and mythological ideas that still speak to us in a powerful manner and I certainly have more respect for those of faith than the arrogance of those in science who have no idea of the value of what they disparage. "

You show the same arrogance towards those of a science back ground as you accuse them towards those of faith.

Your belittling questions on beauty and art to me were not worth much of answer as most to all the humans I know appreciate those things and don't have to be justify. I spend a fair amount of time outside studying the natural world, science has helped me understand that world better.

Myths are called myths for a reason...they are not based on any verifiable information. They may pull on your heartstrings, they make make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside but they are still myths.

MikeL

Social climber

Southern Arizona

Jun 21, 2017 - 07:30am PT

Base,

You and I agree about the unintended consequences of “screwing around in other countries.” I was interested in Trump for no other reason than I thought he implied he’d become much more of an isolationist so that our country might mind its own business. Alas, it seems that not even an outsider and iconoclast can overcome the immense institutionalization of a government such as ours.

War is such a terrible shame. (But I digress.)

Be well.

Craig: . . . just like some things taste good, some things don't

De gustibus non est disputandum

rbord: In the US, where 150 years after slavery ended, median white family wealth is still 13 times median black family wealth, who says my skin color isn't right?

I think there is considerably more than simply skin color that would account for the statistics. This suggests or implies a hasty generalization.

Sempervirens: Your logic is flawed.

Logic would appear to have nothing whatsoever about beauty. I would say you missed the object of the conversation.

Werner: All spiritual science is testable .....

From my side, I’d say that’s true. But the testability of spirit is not an objective process.

No matter what the area of study, what’s needed are the tools that are appropriate for the work. One would not break out the craftsman tools to repair a computer or a microscope to lay a floor.

Bob,

There are some things that cannot be discussed literally.

paul roehl

Boulder climber

california

Jun 21, 2017 - 09:23am PT

You show the same arrogance towards those of a science back ground as you accuse them towards those of faith.

Consider the original question of this thread. Reverse it: Is science doing more harm than good these days?

Remember science has produced a method for eliminating a good portion of life on this planet within a very brief period of time and we are threatened by that consequence on a daily basis.

However, I think science/ the scientific method is one of the greatest achievements of the human mind, but I would say the same for myth and religion. That you can't understand that is the source of the arrogance I referred to. Further, the achievements in both science and religion are evidence of the remarkable singularity and significance of humanity in a universe where such achievements seem to be extremely rare.

The arrogance is not mine.