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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 11:24am PT
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HFCS is your partner in crime also
Well, according to Sullly and her critical discernment, we're one and the same, lol!
We must be ALTER-egos then? :)
.....
your strawman army has amassed on our shores again...
This makes zero sense. So does the rest. ZERO.
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Dec 17, 2014 - 11:27am PT
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Fructose,
it is troubling to me that you generalize dangerously
by for example saying that "liberals" endorse babying radical Islam
seems a False Equivalence argument you put forth, that you can identify a couple of high profile leftists and then state your assumption that the liberal group itself is also implicated
I am "liberal" and I suspect you are too, and both you and I and probably the vast majority of the political left are strongly against anything but the most extreme destruction of radical Islam
so why do you do it, you know its not true.......grey skies in Iowa got you down?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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Read it again. I said Affleck libs. Jesus!!
Are you so immersed in partisan politics in America (us vs them, MSNBC v Fox) you can't get your head out for the trees?!
All I can conclude Norton is that you do not follow the intense mixup over several years now within liberal community over criticism of Islam. To narrow this down specifically, all I have to do is direct you to Bill Maher/Sam Harris vs Ben Affleck episode. Don't make it about me, which you've done several times now, make it about them and that episode. What is your op-ed on what went down there? That should clarify it. Let's hear it. That was lib on lib. What was the basis for that? Also if you follow The Young Turks (lib), Cenk Uygur... he had Harris come on. What was that about? Also the mixup between many in evolutionary science and the New Atheists (lib) vis a vis slate.com and salon.com's (lib) attacks on new atheists. What's with that. Let's hear it from you?
You've said you're a big fan of Bill Maher (I think) and Sam Harris and Neil deGrasse Tyson (all lib). If so, we shouldn't have any conflict because my take on these subjects matches up pretty much pt for pt with theirs.
If your position is that I should minimize or zero out the word "liberal" or "Democrat" in any criticism in the interest of the team, well that just ain't going to happen. Because there are some crazy libs out there, lol! Yes I am a liberal Dem, I voted for Obama twice and would love to see a Clinton-Warren ticket.
PS, here's a thought: Maybe if the libs could unify on Islam, the criticism of Islam, that whole shebang; if they could work it out, work through it; their side of it would be less schizo across the board and more capable/ competent in dealing with those on the Right. It's not rocket science, as I'm sure you know.
You should watch before posting your op-ed...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVl3BJoEoAU
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 02:00pm PT
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Here, maybe this will help...
a) When one says black birds he doesn't mean secretary birds or man o war birds or elephant birds or birds in general, he means black birds.
cf: Affleck libs (=/= libs in general)
b) When one says capitalism he doesn't mean Americans.
cf: Islam and Muslims
cf: Islam and Arabs, Islam and Persians
c) When one says jihidi Muslims or islamist Muslims, he doesn't mean all Muslims.
This probably didn't help??
....
Irshad Manji,
advocate for Islamic reform(ation)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 17, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
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There was an interesting article in the New York Times recently about young Arabs, primarily Egyptian (Egypt is the intellectual center of the Muslim world) setting up websites the government can't locate and control that criticize Islam and even advocate atheism in some cases. Since they have tens of thousands of hits now every month, we can assume that the young and IT literate are not satisfied with the status quo. Historically it will prove interesting if Islam does not go through a reformation but directly from fundamentalism to secularism.
Of course these discussions can only take place in a society that is enough above the margin of survival to have the luxury to think and discuss. Can you imagine how desperate are the circumstances in Afghanistan and Pakistan that the best a young man can think of is to strap on a suicide vest?
On the other hand, every time one blows himself up, that's just one less ultra violent person to procreate more of the same. How ironic and how uniquely human that an esoteric belief like bevys of virgins in the afterlife could bring about biological selection in the here and now. What a wondrous and mysterious organ the human brain.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 17, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
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My untouchable's understanding of Buddhism, which came up with the whole enlightenment thing, is that ever loving kindness and compassion figure large in the eightfold path. The idea that 'tough love' - that is to say, abuse, denigration, and attempts at domination - is required to shock supplicants into a state of grace is, of course, just an excuse to indulge in less-than-enlightened behavior.
Try that negative mentoring technique on your kids and let us know how things turn out.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 17, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
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So sad to read about the vicious attack in Pakistan. That area from the Levant to the Indus River Valley would have fared much better under the Greeks or even the Persians and Zeus or Zoroastrianism.
Today incomprehensible tribal hatreds rule and remain like some nightmarish, unsolvable puzzle. Islam is first of all an Arab religion and you could say the great nation state of Persia was and remains in the grip of Arab domination. This inspite of the differences between Shiite Persians and Sunni Arabs. That domination is the product of a religion so bound up in absolutist traditions that any escape seems perfectly impossible.
The same is true of Egypt, the great source of Western Culture, again in the vice of Arab authority through the unbreakable bind of belief. I'm remembering a British Colonel in the aftermath of WWI remarking that the term Islamic extremist was redundant. And so it may be.
You can dream of an Islamic enlightenment, i do, but I just don't see it happening.
Meanwhile the metaphor seems to require unspeakable, purposeful violence.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 17, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
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Of course there is a huge irony in a British army officer commenting about the violence and domination and extremism of the people they invaded and conquered and pillaged, lol.
True. And so much political mess can be traced back to British actions in the last three hundred years.
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Dec 17, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
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no, don't need help with comprehension Fructose
I get what you are saying, and I was not attacking you personally
guess I just have trouble with generalizing terminology that paints all the same
Bill Maher, etc, etc, are media personalities who have highly publicized opinions
such people decidedly do not speak for all or even most liberals, guess my only real
objection was believing apparently wrongly that you were using them to conclude that
because a handful of high profile media leftists say they may favor a more lenient attitude towards radical Islam that it follows to be appropriate to say liberals in general also do so
and because you have generalized much the same in the past I wanted to point it out
that's all, no big deal, not trying to start any argument with you
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
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you guys have a messed up idea of enlightenment. True enlightenment brings you back to where you started. True enlightenment is no enlightenment. See pic below
The good, bad, and the ugly is heaven. Hell is the eternal oneness.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
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Norton, thanks for the clarification. I know it's an oftentimes confusing subject, sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
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HFCS:
Are you serious in suggesting that liberal democrats, of whatever stripe, are capable of effectively dealing with radical Islam, on any level?
What has been the Liberal response to jihadism since 9/11?
To import even more incubating radical Islamist cells Into American communities and institutions, and sacrifice whatever victims they produce on the altar of multiculturalism?
Remember the mass killer at Ft. Knox , which the mainstream media tried to mis-portray and downplay as just your usual 'workplace violence'. Or the very liberal immigration policy that led to the Boston marathon bombers---even after we were warned by the Russians that they were big trouble.
If you are a committed Liberal then you have an especially tough job ahead of you if you are delusional enough to think your fellow liberals can be convinced of the need to pull up their multicultural pants long enough to look this threat squarely in the eye.
Obama lobs a few cruise missiles to kill a couple of these mass murderers, with civilian collateral damage --- while loudly complaining that the CIA tortured Jihadists by forcing them to listen to Star Wars turned up loud and forcing them to drink Ensure.
This is the how liberals deal with the 'cult of death'.
Unbelievable. I could go on all night with further examples.
ISIS itself is a product of Obama's incompetence and deranged values at work.
I hope the American people have had enough of this crap. The results of the mid-term elections have given me a smidgen of hope. But just a smidgen.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 17, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
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HFCS:
Are you serious in suggesting that liberal democrats, of whatever stripe, are capable of effectively dealing with radical Islam, on any level?
Where you been? His strategy is to bring the worlds population back down to 1Bil.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 17, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
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ISIS emerged opportunistically as the result of our invasion of Iraq and the Syrian civil war, neither of which Obama had much to do with (Obama opposed the invasion of Iraq, actually).
You know this, Ward.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
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Obama accelerated the withdrawal from Iraq against the best advice and pleading --- for political motives at home , and simultaneously funded the destabilization of the Assad regime.
This state of affairs created a power vacuum in Iraq and the region in general ,which ISIS subsequently filled. This happened on Obama's watch and was a direct result of his mentality and policies. His clumsy meanderings were aided and abetted by John Kerry, who pathetically sees himself as some sort of world figure of tremendous stature.He is a bungling fool and global joke who should stick to throwing his service medals over the White House fence.
Stupid, and typical of a man , Obama , who considers the U.S. as always the default primary villain.
I'm being kind here.
Look , I don't want to turn this into a political thread , so I shall cist and disease ....I mean dis and obese....I mean cease and desist..
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Dec 17, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
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. . . a non-philosophical philosophy . . .
I couldn't get an answer here to my question of what this meant, so I did a quick search:
Philosophy as Metanoetics Tanabe Hajime (1987)
"Metanoetics (from Greek: μετανόησις "conversion, repentance" from μετανοῶ "I repent"; Japanese: zangedō 懺悔道, dō 道 (path) and zange 懺悔 (metanoia) A neologism coined by Hajime Tanabe in Philosophy as Metanoetics to denote a way of doing philosophy that understands the limits of reason and the power of radical evil. Though the method used by Tanabe to reach this conclusion relies on the transcendental analysis developed by Kant, Tanabe aligns the method with the Buddhist concept of Absolute Nothingness and the preaching of Pure Land Buddhism, Zen, and Christianity" (Wikipedia)
I see how it may appeal to the meditators.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 17, 2014 - 10:47pm PT
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Our longest war in history and we should have stayed longer? Practically no on in the US wanted that. Democracy, remember?
ISIS would probably have happened regardless of when we left due to the Syrian Civil War. Our departure has forced the Iraqi Army to actually do something. A Kurdish homeland might have prevented them from operating in Iraq, but that wasn't even close to politically feasible among the region's stakeholders.
Plus - it's not our country, is it? So there's that. And ISIS isn't the threat to the US - at least according to the CIA's assessment.
No, I'd say the US is right where it needs to be now - thanks to Obama. He's made excellent choices in the sh#t situation his idiot predecessor dumped on him.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 17, 2014 - 10:50pm PT
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Notwithstanding all the Pastor Johns, there are too many to count, there is a cancer at bottom in the Abrahamic narrative that reads like this...
Modern times, oil for money, globalization, the internet, social media, the ME dictatorships post-WWII, politics post-WWII, the whole crazy mix, has caused it to flourish and metastasize.
Good luck fighting this, world.
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Reza Aslan is your standard, Blu? Better do your homework.
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Plus - it's not our country, is it? So there's that. And ISIS isn't the threat to the US
For some, it's less an Am nationalistic or Am local political perspective (seems to be your running emphasis) and more an evolutionary civilization-minded, international community-minded perspective (for lack of a better vignette, in the spirit of Cosmos and Carl Sagan, say).
Regardless, I'm in agreement re Obama and his choices.
...at least according to the CIA's assessment.
Where's the data for this end of sentence tag-on? That's not my sense of it at all from the media watch.
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