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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 24, 2015 - 11:18am PT
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Crunch noted: "Israel has a brand new desalination plant, Sorek, slated to produce (maybe, by now, already does produce) 165 million gallons per day, three times the size of the Carlsbad plant" Big F**ing deal, do those Jews have a $30 billion dollar bullet train? HAH! GOT YOU THERE.
Opps, $33 billion for the train. But Californians will only have to pony up $10 billion of that.
opps, $68-69 Billion. So sorry, missed my price projection up there. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/03/california-high-speed-rai_n_3005001.html
Crap, did it again: So sorry, $98 Billion for the train. Guess I mis-called that price tag. *$98 BILLION* now, my bad. Hey, it's only money. I'm sure there won't be any cost overruns or increase from here on via change orders and political mindscrew votes. About a $billion (one friggan billion so make it only a buck more than $999,999,999.00) will get you at least 50 million gallons of drinking water a day. Meh, what would you people do with about 5 billion gallons of drinking water? Probably just flush it down the toilet. Clean water is overrated.
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Californias-Bullet-Train-to-Cost-985-Billion-What-Else-That-Can-Buy-133041823.html
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 24, 2015 - 11:21am PT
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*$98 BILLION* I'm sticking with that. for now
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 24, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
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DMT spoke thus: "Its how the system works, maaaaaan."
Yup. Both parties - dems and repubs, actually it extends to anyone elected, are beholden to monied interests to pay for the ads and campaigning expenses, and you generally don't get exposure to get elected unless you have the big bucks coming in from lobbyist and corporation types. So unless your name is Michael Bloomberg (bad example as he sucked up money too), that is the way the system works. They give it to you to get elected and you vote in their pet projects. Our brand new gov Kate Brown is a classic example. A cable bill comes up in the state congress. She's opposed to it. Comcast gives her campaign $8000 to change her mind and she does. Simple. Women that the police arrest as Prostitutes are honest and honorable in comparison. Truly.
From my viewpoint, this kind of thing is something I could support had it arose out of a strategic review of California transportation infrastructure by a group of experts. It seems more like the idea is just going to plopped down on top of a bunch of existing issues and be expected to cure those issues.
It won't (although it would help some, not much at all for the scratch it will suck up). Much like the Bush war on Iraq that made a lot of otherwise solid defense dollars disappear so it's not available where it should have gone had folks been strategically planning in advance, it will surely make the money that could be devoted to fixing a large bunch of California's transportation issues disappear.
The money will disappear. Not the problems. The part I find interesting is how convinced the Governor is that the money will show up. Some of California's major natural resource economic drivers are slowing and all but disappearing. Oil, Fishing, Logging. Big stuff. To tie this spiel into the drought thread, add Farming to that list - It goes on and on. Any high tech company that incubates into something of significance seems to start looking around for ways to offshore their money or to otherwise reduce their tax obligations. (ie: ala Apple). If you crank their taxes too high they can and will move. California's Prop 30 election in 2012 for $50 billion in extra taxes will make California the highest state tax in the nation at 13.3%. Overall Ca. is #2 (all personal taxes totaled) So you'll see an increase until folks wake up and those who can move do so. Then that will cause income to drop. Despite being #1 in highest income tax in the nation Californians public schools are now on the list of bottom 10 worst in the country next to such regular bottom feeding stalwarts as Alabama and Louisiana, so folks will be moving as well as capitol given how important schools can be to some.
Hmm, that kind of comes out as gloom and doom. Ca still has a lot going for it, so maybe that was too much. But that where it lies as I see it. Don't see where the money will come from for a $30 billion dollar train. Let alone when it triples or quadruples which is where it's going.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 24, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
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Lawns are part of the problem for sure...I've got 6yds of gravel being delivered tomorrow to xeriscape part of my yard.
But that's fairly small potatoes in CA. Or perhaps instead of small potatoes, I should have said small almonds and rice.
Agriculture uses a lot more water than residential in CA, and some of the uses are bordering on criminal in a climate like California's.
Get rid of the high use crops like almonds and rice and your situation improves immediately. Those can be grown elsewhere.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 24, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
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Here's the stats for water use for typical Western states. I think California falls somewhere close to this:
Agricultural: 70-75%
Residential: 20%
Industrial (not including ag): 5-10%
So residential lawns take up around 10-15% of total water use typically. Significant enough.
The big money is in changing agricultural practices though - why grow rice in someplace dry like CA? Why use flood irrigation anywhere (the answer lies in water law and water rights but that is messy and complicated...)?
But yes, change to xeriscape everywhere in the west / southwest would be a big improvement.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 24, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
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Rice in California is grown where the water already is - and has been forever. More like swamps than desert. Like Sacramento. A hundred miles inland, and fifteen feet above sea level. I'll bet the soil doesn't drain worth a damn in rice country, either.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Mar 24, 2015 - 08:34pm PT
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You gents are overlooking the potential of the Bullet Train in altering our weather pattern for the better.
Once that thing gets up to speed circling day in and day out between Bakersfield and Fresno it will create a surface vortex resulting in a stationary low pressure system centered directly over the Central Valley.
This massive low will then suck all of the moisture from the Pacific directly into the midstate flooding the disbelievers with more water than we could ever waste.
Jerry says we have to have faith.
In the meantime - I've taken to peeing on my azaleas.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 24, 2015 - 11:10pm PT
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One of the biggest problems relates to groundwater.
Let's say you own an acre of land. You sink a well. You can draw UNLIMITED amounts of water out of the well.
This makes no sense to me.
You are drawing water from land outside your own. You don't have any reasonable right to water that comes from someone elses' land.
here's my idea: You can pump water from your own land ONLY. Assume your land extends down in a 1-acre square.
So let's say you have a water table of 100 feet. You have a well that goes down 150 feet. Let's make the assumption that what lies between 100 feet and 150 feet is 25% water. You would then be entitled to withdraw 12.5 acre-feet ONLY.
That is water that underlies your land, to which you are entitled.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 25, 2015 - 12:03am PT
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That sounds to me like a good way to knock a bottom rung or two off the economic ladder.
Small farmers would be s.o.l. Big corporate enterprises would just write off extra costs as business expense.
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 25, 2015 - 05:41am PT
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The book "Cadillac Desert: The American West and Its Disappearing Water", which my last long term (@25 years) climbing partner all but made me read so that I could try and argue his points with some intelligence since he'd essentially memorized the damned thing and worked in resource management as well, called this drought 28 years ago. Going from memory it was something to the effect of "When the west's water availability diminishes to it's more typical lower historical volume, what will they do then? And "here's why what you are doing now will not be cost effective" as in "You are paying for a Cadillac but getting a Yugo"...blah blah. There, I summed it up for you and saved you the .99cents a used book costs.
I guess we'll see, but I'd bet "BULLET TRAIN" or "ROAD TRIP" would have been a shocking and unexpected reply to that question:-) Come out like this: As in "what will you do when water availability radically diminishes?" "WE ALL WILL BUILD A "BULLET TRAIN WOOOOT WHHOOOOT! "
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 25, 2015 - 05:52am PT
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Ken M, that's a very good idea, "You can pump water from your own land ONLY. Assume your land extends down in a 1-acre square." However, I don't think you realize the huge amount of work that would entail. Many California municipalities have not even yet been able to install water meters in their cites. A much simpler task. Sacramento, for example, is currently saying that their goal is to: "Install water meters on more than 80% of the City’s water service connections by 2025 " (AND FYI, they have been working continuously for 10 years on this!!!)
http://portal.cityofsacramento.org/Utilities/Conservation/Water-Meters
How much will that cost to retro every rural well with a meter, who will do the work, who will pay for it, and who will then manage it? (ie, the new bureaucracy that will be needed to check peoples water use, then fine or prosecute violators. Would you pay $10 a month to help finance that program or is this another one of those: "I have a good idea someone else can pay for it things?"
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Mar 25, 2015 - 06:10am PT
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Ken M points out one of the biggest issues with California Ground Water law.
One of the biggest problems relates to groundwater.
Let's say you own an acre of land. You sink a well. You can draw UNLIMITED amounts of water out of the well.
This makes no sense to me. Here
This problem has been an issue for decades in San Diego County. In one case, a backcountry fire department well would go dry begining of Summer due to massive overpumping of a rich neighbor. Seriously (I was a grad sutdent working for the county on ground water recharge then).
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 25, 2015 - 02:34pm PT
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The drought will last another 7 or 8 years. During that time all of the groundwater will have been expended, fruit trees will be a faint memory and sinkholes will dot the land.
Laotian immigrants will buy the land for a fraction of it's previous worth. Then, the deluge will start and the sinkholes will fill into thousands of tiny ponds across the landscape. The Laotians will raise tilapia in the ponds in a boom or bust , deluge or drought cycle that will span eons.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Californians fleeing the drought are welcome to come to the Pacific Northwet and buy our houses for ten times what we paid for them.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Population is out of control.
Wake the hell up.
+1
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Dingus, I looked at fake turf as well but all of it got hot in the sun, as in too hot to walk on. Prices were crazy too like $40 a square yard.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Israel is just finishing work on the biggest and most efficient desalination plant in the world.
http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/534996/megascale-desalination/
"... providing 20 percent of the water consumed by [Israel's] households. Built for ... around $500 million, it uses a conventional desalination technology called reverse osmosis (RO). Thanks to a series of engineering and materials advances, however, it produces clean water from the sea cheaply and at a scale never before achieved.
"it will produce 627,000 cubic meters of water daily."
Desalination could provide for the big coastal urban areas: San Diego, Bay Area and LA. Then agriculture may survive on the existing supplies of groundwater, snowpack and Colorado River.
Oh, and concrete slabs scan be painted green. I've seen front "lawns" like this in Moab. Very pretty....
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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California legislation: Way to little far to late.
What was it Forest Gump said?
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