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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:26am PT
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You can keep attempting to justify it in the context of the times, but the broad opinion - at the time - was unequivocal in calling it an abortion.
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bmacd
Mountain climber
100% Canadian
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Jan 26, 2012 - 01:42am PT
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Now is the time for Cesare Maestri himself to come forward and share with everyone his feelings on the matter - I think this is what really is needed. Truly there would be great value in his words.
Ora è il momento per lo stesso Cesare Maestri a presentare e condividere con tutti i suoi sentimenti sulla questione - credo che questo è ciò che realmente è necessario. Veramente ci sarebbe un grande valore nelle sue parole.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Maestri
the way Dibona to Croz of the Most High (1952)
the way Comedians to Sassolungo Salami (1952)
the way Solleder in the Owl (1952)
the way of guides on Crozzon Brenta (1953)
Via Trento (Detassis) to high Brenta (1953)
the way Soldà the South Pillar of the Marmolada Penia (1953)
the crossing from the Top of Ambiez the Bocca del Tuckett concatenating 16 in solitary peaks of the central chain in less than 24 hours (1954)
the way Vinatzer the Sass de syphilis (1955)
the way Opium to Croz of the Most High (1955)
The way of Guides to the Brenta Crozzon downhill (1956)
northern edge of the Cimon della Pala first solo winter ascent (1956)
the way Micheluzzi the Piz Ciavazes (1956)
the way Solleder the Sass Maor (downhill), the way Buhl and the way Masters - Baldessari (downhill) at the Roda di Vael , new routes opened between 1964 and 1966 in the Brenta of Grostè Cima , Cima di Campiglio , Massari Top .
All these climbs were made alone.
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ALPINEMAN
Trad climber
bogota
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Jan 26, 2012 - 03:05am PT
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Because 40, 30, 20, and so forth years ago, nobody had established a route around all those bolts.
or
Because 40, 30, 20, and so forth years ago, nobody has drilled other bolts around all those bolts
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jan 26, 2012 - 03:21am PT
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Got to keep this thread going:-)
As they say in Europe, is the 5.11 climbing on "Fair Means" 'Obligitare' or can you aid past the difficult free climbing if you choose?
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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 26, 2012 - 03:22am PT
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Nice try bmacd, but please restrain from using automatic translators.
No doubt that Maestri was badass and that at the time he was one of "The Vanguard".
Here is the list of his SOLOS (I've done my best to translate it from Italian):
Dibona route, Croz dell'Altissimo (1952)
Comici route, Salame del Sassolungo (1952)
Solleder route, Civetta (1952)
Guide route, Crozzon di Brenta (1953)
Trento route (aka Detassis route), Brenta alta (1953)
Soldà route, south pillar of Marmolada di Penia (1953)
Traversing from Cima d'Ambièz to Bocca del Tuckett, touching 16 summits in less than 24 hrs (1954)
Vinatzer route, Sass de Luesa (1955)
Oppio route, Croz dell'Altissimo (1955)
Guide route, Crozzon di Brenta, downclimbing (1956)
North Ridge, Cimon della Pala, 1st winter solo (1956)
Micheluzzi route, Piz Ciavazes (1956)
Solleder route, Sass Maor, downclimbing
Buhl route, Roda di Vael
Maestri-Baldessari route, Roda di Vael, downclimbing
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d_ice
Ice climber
Tùrin
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Jan 26, 2012 - 03:36am PT
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For the 1000
....
it's late [cit.]
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 26, 2012 - 03:58am PT
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bmacd and The cad,
thanks for your posts.
Reply to healyje:
You can keep attempting to justify it in the context of the times, but the broad opinion - at the time - was unequivocal in calling it an abortion. I agree with you.
But let's analize who criticized Maestri's compressor route.
In first place the british. But the british, understandably, have always considered sacred every piece of rock because they have so little.
Secondly, Maestri's rivals, such as Mauri (a Bonatti's fellow). Who's goal was also to climb Cerro Torre.
Then, of course, Reinhold Messner. But he already belonged to a younger generation and he proved to be a climber with outstanding achievements in term of style and of performance.
Also Warren Harding was criticised for the bolts and his siege tactics. But nowadays, no serious climber would label his bolts as "insane". The number of bolts was not the same as in Compressor route. He didn't use a compressor. But El Cap was also more accessible than Cerro Torre and in addition he didn't have so much accumulated anger to push him to force the route using a compressor.
Nevertheless, we can criticize his style, but we also should be more understanding.
I think there is a very big difference between criticism and insult.
I accept criticism and it helps to constructively pursue purer and cleaner styles in climbing. But hammering an historical climber, such as Maestri, and his bolts as an expression of insanity and with a systematic campaign, it's too beyond the limit, in my view. And also a demostration of ignorance and lack of respect towards the times when Maestri lived.
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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Jan 26, 2012 - 05:19am PT
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great posts enzolino! beyond folks...
maybe cause italians have at leats 2700 years of history...and northamericans less then 500...it seems that our judgment for things that belong to the past is really different.
compressor route WAS a bad route...all right!
but compressor route WAS an historical route, son of the practice, controversy and heritage of ITS time.
40 years for chopping the bolts are TOO MUCH.
this work should be done suddenly (after at maximum 5/10 years...10 because patagonia WAS a remote region) by the climbers of THAT time.
40 years are one fourth of the whole history of climbing mountain!
a 40 years old route is part of climbing history, not something that can be arbitrary change.
history is not always good, compressor route WAS NOT a good example of ''by fair means'' ascent also for a great part of the '70 climbers.
nevertheless has become a piece of history.
history, good or bad, must not be simply erased when different judgments come...history must always be preserved for future memory, for underlining the great things done by our ancestral parents, and for fixing in our minds the great errors they did.
changing history is simply called ''revisionism''.
nani gigantum humeris insidentes
we are like dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, so that we can see more than they, and things at a greater distance, not by virtue of any sharpness of sight on our part, or any physical distinction, but because we are carried high and raised up by their giant size
and for the people who cited Monnalisa (and not Mona Lisa), please remember:
"Queste mani hanno restaurato le cattedrali di Pisa, Lucca, Firenze... Di chi sei figlio tu ??? Noi siamo i figli, dei figli, dei figli di Michelangelo e Leonardo; di chi sei figlio tu ?"
These hands restructured the cathedrals of Pise, Lucca and Florence! Whose sons are you? We are the sons of the sons of the sons of Michelangelo and Leonardo! Whose sons are you?
cheers,
matteo.
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Jean Gurtorju
climber
land of echoes
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Jan 26, 2012 - 05:28am PT
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"I think there is a very big difference between criticism and insult.
I accept criticism and it helps to constructively pursue purer and cleaner styles in climbing. But hammering an historical climber, such as Maestri, and his bolts as an expression of insanity and with a systematic campaign, it's too beyond the limit, in my view. And also a demostration of ignorance and lack of respect towards the times when Maestri lived."
Thank you enzolino, thank you.
RESPECT, forgotten word
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monaco
climber
marseille (FR) - parma (IT)
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Jan 26, 2012 - 05:28am PT
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furthermore...''by fair means'' has for me a strict meaning:
-leave the ground only with ''crack things'' (nuts, friends, pitons, etc..)
-climb in a place where there are NOT bolt or spit that ''could'' be not used (but ''in the case of'' they are there for helping us!)
-using five spits for ''intermediate'' protections and spits/bolts at the belays is definitely NOT ''by fair means''
we cannot adapt the rules of the game to our higher/lower capability...the rules must be chosen once, and before playing.
no bolt means no bolt...not that 5 spits ( + belays!!!) is ok, and 360 (within belays) is bad...all the rest are merely ''smart talks''.
cheers,
matteo.
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ezy
Mountain climber
Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 05:31am PT
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Great post Monaco, I agree with you...
Maestri’s style and motivations, which in a certain sense can be considered indefensible, may be disputable, but they are part of the anarchy which is inherent in the wandering in the mountains and somehow has always been innate in alpinism.
It’s just because of this anarchy, this freedom, that we should not overcriticize – just to stay on the Cerro Torre or the Torre Egger issue – the “siege” routes opened in several seasons, or those done entirely with fixed ropes, with the compressor or also aluminium boxes.
The boundary between tradition and innovation, between modernity and experience of the past is not well defined. And anyway, a severe ethical judgement should never exempt from alpinistic and human respect, towards those who preceded us.
K & K: Shame!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 26, 2012 - 05:36am PT
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I think there is a very big difference between criticism and insult.
Criticism would be complaining the route is too difficult and walking away. Insult is drilling your way up the rock instead. It is entirely artless.
And respect? The issue of respect comes down to how you prioritize respecting the man or the mountain - his disrespect of the mountain was not done without a serious cost to his reputation, and that's as it should be.
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ezy
Mountain climber
Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 05:49am PT
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@ Rolo Garibotti
Who authorizes you to change the names of place names (toponymy)??
The Colle della Conquista (Col of Conquest) is so called from more than 50 years and and not as the Egger-Torre Col the way you like ....
or perhaps you've read and learned from Buscaini??
For example, the toponymy Col de Lux I do not like it at all. We change it??
grazie mille !!!
http://alpinesketches.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/pataclimb-when-toponymy-hides-a-crusade/
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 05:52am PT
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K & K: Shame!!!
the lads were only the executors
most of the shame should be addressed to the instigator, maybe someone that is trying to systematically rewrite history to his own purposes?
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 26, 2012 - 05:59am PT
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Criticism would be complaining the route is too difficult and walking away. Insult is drilling your way up the rock instead. It is entirely artless.
And respect? The issue of respect comes down to how you prioritize respecting the man or the mountain - his disrespect of the mountain was not done without at a serious cost to his reputation and that's as it should be. I would agree with you up to a certain point.
The perception of respect towards the rock depends on the geography and on the historical period. In Dolomite there were billion of tons of virgin rock, and to fix bolts was just one way to progress along a line.
Even Reinhold Messner, in his articles, didn't make of bolting an ecological issue, but an ethical one.
The british, on the contrary, were already more sensitive towards the respect of the rock also as a consequence of their highly anthropized land, and the scarcity of rock. This is why they called the Compressor's route a "rape".
Even Yosemite pioneers, could not predict that their pitons could damage the cracks so seriously, and only in the last two decades climbers were encouraged to climb hammerless.
As you can see, the perception of respect changes with time. Perhaps for Maestri was not such a big deal. But the criticism against him damaged seriously his reputation, and it was also functional to promote a more respectful and ethical styles.
But now we are in 2012.
More than 40 years later.
And we should have a wider perspective and understanding of the pioneers of the past, even if their were not so ethical and respectful a posteriori.
On the contrary, who, in recent times, used 200 kg aluminium boxes, and throw them on the glacier, but applauding because some bolts have been removed. Those are the irrespectful and hypocrit people!
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 26, 2012 - 06:22am PT
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@ Conrad Anker: did you clean all fixed ropes on Badlands?
@ Bruce: you wrote "concensus": it was a meeting host by Argentinians and there were climbers from 9 countries.
Best
E
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 06:32am PT
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read this, I thought it deserved a translation :-)
Hospital of Stallavena, for the young of the past time.
HoS "Hello, what's your name?"
Rolo "What is this?"
HoS "a microphone... "
R "Ok, you can use it"
HoS "Ahem! So sure. Listen may I interview you?"
R "Maestri, son of f*#king bitch ... is this not a bolt? Huh?"
HoS "No, look, it's a microphone, keep quiet"
R "You bastards italians, drilling all my mountains, Mestri's farrata everywhere, look this route ... chop my f*#king as#@&%es Italians"
HoS "I do not think Maestri has ever come here, however this is a crag pride and joy of Italy, and comfortable rest for the old climber ... but hey you do?"
R "F*#king bastards Italians, I change the name of this route to" Italian's ferrata, Maestri suck my dick, idiot stroooooooonzi climbers' "
HoS "Holy Mother, one of the most serious cases. I thougth you were younger..."
R "What's this?"
HoS "I told you, is a microphone ..."
R "and why you use it here? Huh?"
HoS "Mr. Garibotti, I'm trying to interview you, you're considered an expert of Patagonia and honors us with his presence. On big walls you're definitely a great Maestr...(*) "
R "MAESTRI, son of f*#king bitch, HEY MAESTRI DO YOU See This? SO PUT YOUR BOLTS IN YOUR ASS"
HoS "No wait!, you can't just take my microphone for this, stop, please don't do it!"
R "AHAHAAHHAHAH! MAESTRI ... ah, oh f*#k! Please chop this bolt from my ..."
HoS "It's a microphone"
R "Drilling"
NDS "Wait, at least I turn it off"
(*) Maestro = Teacher, Master
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giggio
climber
Milano, Italy
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Jan 26, 2012 - 06:34am PT
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Looks like many people pay attention only to the sentences and the posts they can reply and use to demonstrate their own point of view.
We're not here to decide if Maestri's compressor route has been good or not: I think most of us could agree it was done in a poor style, with little respect for the mountain and a very big ego statement.
And I think most of the people complainting for the bolt chopping are not Maestri's fan, and don't like the compressor route.
But as many others said - not so far from one hundred of time I guess - the point is that everything must be put in its own context in order to be evaluated, and most of all we cannot judge something has been done decades ago only with our own criteria. Moreover, a few persons cannot decide if it's the case to keep or to delete it.
Yes, it's true: even in Maestri's time his style was criticized, but nobody thought it was the case to go up and delete his line.
As Drugo said: if something similar to the compressor route would be done now many of us would agree to go up and chop everything; but doing something similar on an 40-year-old route is a nonsense.
There are many many things around the world, done in the past, that now appear ugly to many people: are we going to blow up everything or maybe is better to leave something - even if we don't like it - as a mark of the past?
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Jean Gurtorju
climber
land of echoes
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Jan 26, 2012 - 06:39am PT
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The indignation at the reckless action of K & K expands. Here's an article on Grimper, an important French magazine.
http://www.grimper.com/news-chronique-jean-pierre-banville-points-ligner
Chronique de Jean-Pierre Banville : Points à la ligne…
JP Banville
Dans une chronique récente, j’ai abordé l’importance de conserver notre héritage collectif. Moi, j’ai des bacs pleins de souvenirs qui encombrent le sous-sol et dont mon fils se fera un plaisir de mettre à la rue à la seconde suivant mon décès. D’autres ne gardent strictement rien de leur vie, de vraies nomades qui, comme les nomades, disparaitront du souvenir de l’humanité un peu comme s’ils n’avaient jamais existé.
Je lis avec la plus grande consternation que deux grimpeurs américains se sont décidés, à la suite d’une ascension réussie du Cerro Torre, à couper 102 points de la fameuse et historique Voie du Compresseur réalisée par Maestri en 1970.
Est-ce le manque d’oxygène? La Folie des Grandeurs? L’illusion de leur propre importance?
Ces excellents grimpeurs ont détruit volontairement une voie historique qui a marqué l’alpinisme. Ces sombres personnages ont détruit notre passé… encore que, sombres… je lis qu’ils avaient en main, lors de leur arrestation, les 102 points en question! J’ai coupé pas mal de points dans ma vie et jamais il ne me serait venu à l’idée de les conserver ce qui me fait dire qu’il y a anguille sous roche.
On ne parle pas ici de pitons servant de tire-clou dans une voie ridicule du fin-fond de la Patagonie. On parle de la Voie du Compresseur !!!
On va me rétorquer que cette ferraille allait tomber un jour ou l’autre. La Vénus de Milo retombera aussi en poussière un de ces jours ce qui n’est pas une raison valable pour la découper menue!
Le nom des illuminés? Jason Kruk et Hayden Kennedy…
Kruck est Canadien, un déshonneur. Kennedy est commandité par Patagonia ce qui me donne le goût de ne plus jamais acheter un seul item portant ce logo. On lit sur Rock and Ice que les deux personnages ‘’are so Badass it blows my mind’’.
La stupidité humaine n’a pas de borne!
Et en prime, les gars ont mousquetonné cinq points en allant au sommet mais ont quand même réussi ‘’by fair means’’ ( ? ) justifiant ainsi d’effacer un pan entier de notre histoire. Je voudrais hurler!!!!!!!!
Ces représentants de l’espèce humaine me dégoutent. C’est de la même mouture que les gens qui ont pillé les musées en Irak ou en Afghanistan – leur héritage en propre et la fierté de leur nation - , ceux qui violent les tombes en Chine et en Amérique du Sud, ceux qui saccagent les temples et les églises.
Aucune justification éthique ne peut valider cet acte. Feraient-ils la même chose sur le Nose?
Je suis pour un boycott de Patagonia… et qu’on retire leur diplôme de guides, à ces zozos…
Étrange que cette affaire arrive cette semaine. Car elle touche Maestri et moi, Maestri, je lui ai toujours donné le bénéfice du doute. Comme je donne le bénéfice du doute à tout le monde, quel que soit la réalisation. Chilam Balam et tout et tout. C’est une question d’honneur et ça vient des racines anglo-saxonnes du sport. Je lis beaucoup de blogs, des blogs de grimpeurs.
Mon arrêt mensuel sur celui d’une grimpeuse française bien connue m’a fait sursauter.
Je passe sur le fait que le style se rapproche des sermons de Bossuet que vous devez – bien sûr – connaître et qui est surprenant de lire sous la plume d’une jeune femme au début de la vingtaine.
Je passe plus difficilement sur le fait de cracher sur la presse de montagne…
J’équipe des falaises en plein désert – de glace – et ces falaises sont secrètes. Je ne me vante donc pas de mes performances à la perceuse car je ne suis ni commandité, ni glorifié sur le fil de presse. Je ne cherche pas la notoriété par ces œuvres.
Si je le faisais, je serais assez intelligent pour inviter amis, ennemis, presse et photographes lors de l’ouverture officielle. Personne ne pourrait contester la paternité de l’œuvre et je suis assez rigoureux pour endosser tous les écarts réels ou imaginés.
Alors pourquoi ‘’bitcher’’ – en bon québécois et à des années lumières de Bossuet - alors qu’il est si facile, lorsqu’on veut vivre sous les feux de la rampe et qu’on se doit aux commanditaires, d’être totalement transparent en tout temps?
Pourquoi ouvrir la porte au doute? Surtout que la grimpeuse en question est, selon moi, une des meilleures grimpeuses de notre époque! On ne peut vivre dans le clair-obscur et espérer des passe-droits que les autres n’ont pas.
Car je donne le bénéfice du doute à tous et à toutes mais il y a une crédibilité à ne pas perdre…
Une fois, deux fois, trois fois. De la transparence, que diable!
Et comme je parlais du style de mademoiselle qui ressemble à s’y méprendre à celui de Bossuet, voici une citation pertinente du grand homme :
« Le plus grand dérèglement de l'esprit, c'est de croire les choses parce qu'on veut qu'elles soient, et non parce qu'on a vu qu'elles sont en effet. »
Pour terminer sur une note sublime, Bossuet fut évêque de Condom ….
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 26, 2012 - 06:45am PT
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