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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:13pm PT
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Fair enough, Live with yourself and others anyway you choose.
Having the option of healing bad blood to consider is what this thread is about and I think sometimes folks need a reminder not to procrastinate it. No apologies for bringing up the subject.
PEace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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Here's something I wrote about forgiveness awhile back, for those who might be interested in exploring the ins and outs of it.
Forgiveness
Many of us feel that when we forgive somebody, we’re doing them a favor. Perhaps they’ve changed, or apologized, or maybe we feel that we made them suffer enough.
The reality is, that the main beneficiary of forgiveness is the forgiver.
Every time we harbor an ill will, hateful feeling, or persistent negativity towards someone, we pack it away in a dark place within ourselves. This is a place of pain.
Many times we try not to think of this dark place where our wounds and angers live. That is called denial. Denial creates an obstacle to the honesty that we require to know ourselves. Denial can only exist by our maintenance of willful ignorance of reality.
Other times, we remember the wrongs done to us. We chew on the ill feelings about those who hurt us. We relive those negative emotions over and over, suffering the pains of the past once again. Suffering the pain of the past without resolving it needlessly multiplies our suffering in life.
The process of forgiveness liberates us in many ways.
First, facing and accepting the pain that we have endured in life empowers us to let go of it; to be free from the weight of our accumulated suffering. Witnessing the negative charge within us, without holding on or spinning it into a new drama, allows it to pass from us. Bravely facing our pains and judgments breaks the habit of denial.
Second, it is our imaginary idea of ourselves, the ego, which jealously and selfishly catalogs the crimes committed against us. We see the faults of others, and their transgressions, and gloss over our own.
By stepping back, we can witness the clinging and justifications of our mind. The ego’s brutal grasp on us weakens every time we release our pain and negativity.
The judgments we hold against others creates the framework for our judgments against ourselves. Taking the leap to forgive others releases negativity within us, and automatically begins to heal the grudge that we have with ourselves.
Change yourself and everything changes around you. Don’t take my word for it. It will be obvious when you do it.
By now, many people have been thinking of important objections to this whole idea of forgiveness. After all, many of us have suffered very real and painful abuse and nobody wants to line up for more. Let’s look at the devil in the details.
Does forgiveness mean we have to enter into relationship again with those we have forgiven?
No, forgiveness is an inner state of not holding on to negativity. If expressing that forgiveness will subject you to further abuse, don’t disclose it. Forgiving the violent ex-husband doesn’t excuse his actions, nor does it mean you have to take him back. It just means that you aren’t holding negativity within yourself anymore that ties you to those past pains and wounds.
We don’t have to resume sending money to the wayward daughter so she can finance her alcoholism. We don’t have to dismiss charges against the violent criminal so he can go find another victim. We can tackle muggers, speak out against injustice, and protect the weak and exploited.
How we deal with the various and complicated situations of life that evolve out of our decision to break free from our negativity can be inspired from our heart, with due consideration for all the factors involved.
Once we take out our emotional garbage, our feelings will give rise to intuition. Our minds will be free to take a less-biased view of the state of affairs.
There is often a middle ground in many situations. It’s often possible to have an amicable friendship and supportive custody relationships with an ex-spouse without re-marrying them. It’s often possible to work with difficult people without internalizing negativity about them but without accepting degrading treatment at the same time.
Miraculously, we often find that once the hatred is out of our own hearts, others can no longer sustain the negativity they have for us either. People who we assumed were rotten to the core are suddenly capable of humanity.
If it feels safe to express your forgiveness to the one you had begrudged, it can often be a liberating experience for both of you. Use your intuition and courage. Even if they don’t deserve it, sometimes especially if they don’t deserve it, it can start a chain reaction of transformation and grace that cascades into the world we live in.
When you see the potential for Love and kindness within another person, it summons the best in them to the surface.
Think about it. How many people who accept you without onerous conditions have made it to your enemies list?
If there are people who resist and hate those who unconditionally love them; that’s only because they are desperately clinging to their dark denial of themselves. They resent anyone who threatens to shine a light into their cherished oblivion.
Resistance to our experience is 90% of our suffering. The actual pain is just a small, bearable experience in the moment if we don’t hang on.
You may evolve your own process of discovering where your negativity lies and forgiving your friends and enemies alike. Here’s one way to get started with it:
For some, it’s painfully obvious whom they haven’t forgiven. If there is any doubt, still your mind and “intend” to discover which pains you are holding on to. Know your inner landscape and where the weeds are.
In a state of concentration and mental quietude, feel the emotions and reactions that come up when you examine the person and situation that needs forgiveness. Ask yourself if you are ready to let go of it. Just “Be” with it, for as long as it takes for it to lose its negative charge. Decide to let it go.
Don’t refer back to the ego and justify your anger or multiply your reasons for being upset. Watch it and let it be. Realize that humans are often weak, ignorant, and self-obsessed. It’s natural that we hurt each other, consciously and unconsciously, in countless relationships. We all have faults in the actions of our personality. Live and let live.
Recognize that the offending party need not always be a bad person. Free them to be better by releasing your hold on a negative concept of them. In doing so, you release your hold on a negative concept of yourself.
Repeat this process until the negative charge in your mind and heart regarding the person is discharged.
In the course of our lives and in nearly every human relationship, we experience and inflict grief and hurt, intentionally and unintentionally, in communication and miscommunication.
I’m sure I’ve upset many people over the years and I beg their forgiveness. I freely forgive all those who have hurt me.
The way to be free from the cycle of negativity is through forgiveness. Give it a try if holding on to your bad feelings isn’t serving you.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Threads drift and not every example is perfect.
Mellisa wrote
".I'd probably hate the f*#ker that abused me till the day I died and hate anyone that told me that I should go heal my bad blood with my abuser."
I think my writing above should clear up the idea that I'm suggesting we embrace anyone, no matter how negative they are. Searching yourself, you may find that having hate in your heart might limit you and hold you back. Maybe the abuser likes that you hate em, are attached to them in that negative way forever.
It's possible to decide to be free of hurtful things within yourself with going Kumbaya on folks doing people wrong.
But there is plenty of petty grievances in the climbing world where getting over things that were only once considered important is a worthy step. If they leave this world, it sucks to be left with unsaid words and bad vibes
peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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"karl, you come across as self-righteous as an evangelist. so YOU have all the answers and everyone who doesn't agree with you is just lost?"
Would you have written that before taking up bad blood with me after feeling slighted by my remarks on the cryin time thread? See how hurt feelings just expand and get worse.
Don't know what to say T*R. I know that if we hung out face to face that we'd be fine together and also that you're not really on the side of keeping battles raging.
So how do we get over that? If you make an enemy every time your feelings get hurt, you wind up getting darker and darker. That's why so many older folks lose the spark that the younger folks still have.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
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Hi T*R
"only you had the answer and there was a reason why everyone else felt they did. me - not enough experience
climbers with as much or more experience as you - want the kids to walk through snow to get to school"
Maybe reread that thread T*R. I have my perspective but said in the end it didn't much matter if those bolts stayed or left. I asked you what your experience was to justify your position and you took it as a put-down.
Yet perhaps you had some experience. You said you hung out at Lembert. How would I know you haven't seen any anchors there? Of course it's relevant whether somebody has any experience about what they are talking about and it's fair to determine if they have it or not. Doesn't mean your opinion means nothing. Just stand up for yourself and admit it if you are speaking out of emotion or an experience you had elsewhere. You chose to take it personally and it wasn't so.
I think there may be some difference in the way women and guys argue. Some guys (like me) go about it in a way that offends some sensibilities and I apologize if that was the case.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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T*R wrote
"here we go again. kill me lol"
I can't kill you until we make up...Sorry!
;-)
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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But, do you have Feringi ears, Wolf boy?
T*R, I hope you know I think the world of you, but how did you Ever, come up with "only you had the answer and there was a reason why everyone else felt they did. me - not enough experience" ? That's so far offbase that I don't know where to begin. Karl, just 'don't got' that sort of ego....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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I hate all your guts to pieces but I'm writing this as my homework assignment from my probation officer.
You read it here first on the internet. Must be true.
as for T*r, glad you aren't too bent. We've always got along and I'm cool with a disagreement over something now and then
PEace
Karl
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Karl, I truly appreciate your long post above, as they are words that echo excellent advice that I have followed with success. My own situation has required that I forgive huge autocracies perpetrated against me both deliberately and unwittingly. While not condoning wrongful acts committed against me, forgiving them allows positive feelings within me to flourish. In my life, I have found that repeated actions and thoughts become habits, and if they are positive actions and thoughts (like forgiving), positive (good) things happen to me, and I move forward toward my goals.
Sincere thanks for this thread.
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hooblie
climber
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this internet thing is sure a rough approximation of communication. it strips the nuances of shading and inflection which certain styles thrive on. sometimes on re-reading my own stuff after a few days i'm horrified at how it can be pitched two or three different ways.
the classic example that i carry with me is from a sat.nite.live skit from the three mile island era. in the control room of the nuclear reactor the boss takes off for vacation and emphasizes: "remember, you can't put too much water on a nuclear reactor!" upon melt down, the room divides into two factions at a complete impass, each equally certain on what the boss said, and so what action to take.
it might be that the kind of communication that heals, occurs at a vibration rate separate and apart from the verbal, let alone cyber-text.
although it seems quite capable of upbraiding, but i guess that's a different deal
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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"why do you have to forgive?"
Forgiving means getting the negative charge out of your own system. You don't "have" to, but it will make you freer inside.
"can't you just forget and move on?"
"Forgetting" to me, means putting the issue into a denial space where it festers inside you but it's still there. Not good for remaining a light and happy person in my experience.
"why focus on negative individuals?" You don't have to focus on individuals. Heal the negative space within yourself and have compassion for both yourself and others. Some folks you might want to make peace with due to negativity that needlessly remains over petty stuff or our human weakness. If somebody has really hurt you, they don't even have to know you forgive them. Just understand that there are people passing the pain they received onto you and free yourself from it so you don't pass it on yourself.
I probably stated it better in the essay on top of the previous page.
Some may want to recognize that they resent the suggestion that they get over pain and anger that they have been harboring. Understandable. Perhaps you have to be ready.
But watch your emotions from within and look at the sore points in your life, and there may be a time when you feel it's time to get free from the baggage we all take on with time and experience.
PEace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Yeah, we can forgive.
But never forget .......
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MisterE
Trad climber
Meeteetse, Wyoming
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Unless you have Alzheimer's
or lead poisoning
or...
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WBraun
climber
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I think I have all those too ....
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WBraun
climber
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So? You want to become zero?
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MisterE
Trad climber
Meeteetse, Wyoming
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Ah, the non-being.
Curious subject, not attainable for the living, sadly.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I wrote:
"Part of being in a relationship, and whether we like it or not, most climbing partnerships are relationships, is being able to have frank and honest discussion when things go badly. If we can't have those types of discussions then there really is no relationship. "
To which Dingus replied:
"I dunno know about that. For a pure climbing relationship I think sometimes it may be best to let sleeping dogs lie. Sometimes avoiding a confrontation until the original issue fades like a single coating of white paint after a New England winter is the wiser (and easier) course."
Dingus,
When I said "frank and honest discussion when things go badly" I mean when things go really badly and you are facing issues which are, potentially, the difference between life and death and working together is critical for survival. Obviously, that doesn't describe the depths of every climbing partnership we have, but the potential has to be there to deal with problems rather than ignore them.
I am not trying to turn every climb into an encounter session, but I really do feel that if you feel your personal safety is at risk, you can't just ignore the situation.
Bruce
ps - I don't think Karl is being self-righteous. I think he has given this issue a lot more thought than most of us and has some very interesting insights. YMMV.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Its good you don't forget Rocjox, as u owe me a sixer.
I think Karl, whom I have never met, is probably about as level headed as they come and a straight shooter.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2009 - 01:28am PT
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"I think Karl, whom I have never met, is probably about as level headed as they come and a straight shooter."
I appreciate the support and good words. Shooting straight is a tough one though, since we are complicated humans who can alternately be weak, strong, selfish and noble. Sometimes we get blind and by the time we open up our eyes, we've lost a friend.
I climb a lot with folks I'm not in a position to completely trust if things get "life or death" Perhaps they just don't have the skills yet, and so I have to chose those situations with those factors in mind since they are otherwise great people.
Shoot, we love our pets but they might bite our leg if we step on their tail.
When it comes to relationships, things really get wild. My best friend from high school married my ex-girlfriend who dumped me cause I wouldn't have kids. I could have been tweaked or celebrated that two close relationships were now in the same house and I could enjoy both of their companies. I chose to embrace them and it was great. I know a lot of folks in my hippy-dippy circle who have maintained great relationships with ex-partners cause they didn't let their ego turn everything into a negative story about them.
I've got a few private emails from folks whose families thrive on bad blood. We often thrive on power struggles and those close to us provide the drama.
Best and most honest is this: consider your own weaknesses and temptations and don't judge anyone more harshly than you can live up to in vulnerable times.
Consider the big picture too, just cause you can resist drilling a chicken bolt but can't resist sleeping with the married chick doesn't mean you can be righteous about one and make excuses about the other.
Peace
Karl
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