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Binks
Social climber
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Can't we just let it die now. They were conquered and it was generations before my birth. Same with lots of other wars etc. I'm fine with fireworks. Let's deal with the way it is NOW...
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Chinchen
climber
Flagstaff?
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Thanks for posting that, Mr Bachar.
Bluering you sir are and idiot.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Just off the lake sunburnt and crispy and happy. Scrolled quickly through all the posts ...to many takes to respond to. But have to say, all you have takes....all valid, some more than others. Digging yo ALL MY FRIENDS on this holiday. :D
When the HELICOPTERS and the two vans containing the BOMB SQUAD along with several SHERIFF'S squad cars greeted Dan and I at our home several years ago for "merely" a minor infraction I knew we were no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Really happened and really scary. :} Cheers to you all. Without the Fourth we could not express all our great and varied opinions.
Lynnie
EDIT: So far no handcuffs,,,,, MAJOR HOMEMADE FIREWORKS rule !!!111(((999
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Just ran across some old George Carlin skit.... to lighten things up.
“This entire country is completely full of sh#t and always has been. From the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution to The Star-Spangled Banner, it’s really nothing more than one big, steaming pile of red, white and blue, All-American bullsh#t.
“Because think of how we started – think of that. This country was founded by a group of slave-owners who told us all men are created equal. Oh, yeah. All men, except for Indians and n***ers and women, right? (Always like to use that authentic American language.)
“This was a small group of unelected, white male, land-holding slave-owners who also suggested their class be the only one allowed to vote. Now that is what’s known as being stunningly and embarrassingly full of sh#t."
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L
climber
A deep dive in the shallows of life..
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Bluering,
You are not to blame for history. Plain and simple: You weren't there; you didn't do anything wrong a couple hundred years ago. You don't have to feel guilty because you're not guilty--of anything.
I know you're feeling attacked right now, by almost everyone, and the tenor of this whole thread appears to be an attack on you and your viewpoint. And it's naturally going to bring up defensiveness.
But the underlying truth of this dialog is simply an attempt, by people with solid knowledge and experience of Native life in America today, to help open your eyes to the reality of reservation life. It's not a YOU'RE RIGHT/YOU'RE WRONG argument here...it's more about not knowing the truth.
It's also a matter of recognizing the immaculate deceptions perpetuated by a government which, throughout our history, has been going to war in foreign nations to "stop" the very thing it's been doing here at home...to its own people. It's about realizing that you are not alone (by any stretch of the imagination) in believing those lies and deceptions, nor in feeling somewhat helpless as to be able to do anything to help the situation.
You're not at fault here, Bluering. You were just taken in by the powers that be...the powers you were supposed to be able to trust.
I have Native American blood in me--not a lot, but enough to have had a great grandmother who suffered horribly when families were separated and sent to different reservations. But more to the point--and in this present moment--I donate money to the Pine Ridge Reservation, and the Oglala Nation, on a regular basis. Before I give a dime of my hard-earned salary to anyone or anything, I do some pretty careful research.
Our government is not taking care of the Native Americans. It costs $7000 a year for one child in Pine Ridge to go to school, and there are Catholic priests, Protestant ministers, and all sorts of non-denominational volunteers out there begging American citizens like myself to give. So these kids can be educated...better prepare them for the 21st century...and eventually find jobs to support themselves.
Why do you suppose volunteer groups are having to beg people like myself for money for these kids' educations? Isn't a free gradeschool through highschool education mandatory in the United States?
Why do you suppose mortality rates, suicide rates, and alcoholism are higher on reservations than anywhere else in this great nation? Do you truly believe a culture would sentense itself to that sort of slow, cancer-ridden death if it had the power to change course on its own?
My feeling is--you just haven't given much thought to this whole skeleton-in-the-closet thing. And why would you? Unless you had a vested interest in alleviating other's suffering, you have a million other things to think about, work on, deal with. A job, a beautiful wife, an awesome son, a house, taxes, health, etc. And what if all at once you actually see the human (and animal) suffering on the reservations, THEN what the hell are you supposed to do, right? You're only one effin' person--what the hell can you do anyway???
I've got to admit...I feel like that a lot of the time myself. So much suffering...so many animals suffering, humans suffering, the beautiful Earth herself suffering. It's overwhelming at times.
But Bluering, just being able to observe the truth of any situation is an enormous gift to ending the suffering. You--simply you--acknowledging what's going on with Native Americans will eventually raise the consciousness of this entire country, and then the world. One person at a time. It's true...that's all it takes. And when enough people know the truth, the horrendous situation will change. That's how it works.
Be willing to know what's really going on. Do the research yourself--don't depend on anyone else to fill your head for you. You're a smart guy--you know how to research the Internet. And you also know, somewhere deep inside, when you're just collecting crapola to support some embedded, spoon-fed old belief-system...or when you've actually stumbled upon the truth.
And suddenly your entire worldview shifts...and you know.
It's really not about you being right or wrong, Bluering...it's about doing what it takes to see what's really going on.
I personally like you a great deal...your political loyalties aren't who you truly are, so I couldn't care less who you voted for or who you listen to on the radio. But as someone who actually cares about you, I wouldn't mind if...somehow...you were able to find out a bit more about reservation life, just so you could form your own opinion. ;-)
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WBraun
climber
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L -- "just being able to observe the truth of any situation is an enormous gift to ending the suffering."
Yes, that is the first step .......
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Yeah, Bachar, it's all your fault!!! We're gonna have to beat you up! Cause we're american!
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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L - good post, thanks...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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"My ancestors (Norwegians) were the first Europeans known to have arrived here, in about 1,000 CE in L'Anse aux Meadows. They went home soon afterward. No real consequences."
Anders, I appreciated your input on this topic, (but my following comment takes the above paragraph out of the context of your post); your words could offer someone fertile opportunity for a dark rant about Norski oppression of the Sami (Laplander) people who were the indigenous people of northern Scandinavia.
The Vikings were not partial to letting the Sami tend their reindeer herds in peace and were often, in fact, very brutal. Even in recent history, attempts were made to deprive them of their language and enforce seperate economic niche.
Norway was last of the Scandinavian countries to relax ethnic conflict against the Sami. Now, Sami homelands are administered and owned by the people of the province rather than owned by the Norwegian state. And to counter past oppression, Sami culture and language is promoted rather than suppressed. By international law, Sami are recognized as an "indigenous people".
Genocide is defined (by international law) as the intent to destroy a national, racial, religious or ethnical group either by killing, preventing births, causing physical or MENTAL harm, forcibly transfering children. Whenever accusations of genocide are made, the issue is hotly contested by both sides, including what actually concstitutes genocide.
Prosecution of genocide is near impossible because of the difficulty in establishing a chain of accountability. If perpetrators are long dead, a just prosecution, by human beings, IS impossible.
Our harm to Native Americans is one chapter in the human history of genocide and oppression. Genocide is not specific to American history or just a relic of battle ax culture. As Laura suggested, it's too bad our cause célèbre focus is on pointing fingers into the past or across the picket fence at our neighbor rather than taking personal accountability for change and accepting moral codes that might prevent future sufferings.
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Rash on my ash
Gym climber
From: Mumbia
Bqchar, you faggot if you hate this country and what it stands for why the f*#k don't you pack your s*$t up and move to North Korea or Iran. What a puke. grow balls
Freedom of speech dude, freedom of speech.
But one thing Bachar doesn't need to grow is balls.
But being a gym rat you probably wouldn't know that.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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That was L-equent. Thank you for such a wonderful approach.
And of course you are correct.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Neil Young land
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bluering, I don't like to insult people on this site, but you are rather ignorant of the facts
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Nice one, John!
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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On a happier note, I just got done watching another great Fourth of July baseball match up. What a game!
VS.
Cincinnati got whomped again, 13 to 0.... Arizona just killed 'em. It was almost too painful to watch...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Yes, Jennie - there's no doubt that Norway and the Scandinavian countries have at times treated their Sami peoples shamefully. By and large humans tend to exploit and colonize those who are weaker, as the history of the Americas shows so grimly. The Sami were treated in much the same way, although they had the advantage of having the same resistance/susceptibility to disease as the other inhabitants - they weren't decimated by introduced disease, at least not in the same way. And as the Sami are from a remote inland area shared between four countries, with boundaries that were not settled until relatively recently, that provided some protection.
As an aside, I've been told that there is no significant difference between the DNA of the Sami and that of Scandinavians as a whole, although whether that's due to millenia of occasional interbreeding, or there being only cultural and historic differences, is another question. Still, an interesting tidbit, if true.
Of course a millenia ago the Vikings were a rough bunch, even by the standards of the time, and even with the knowledge we have now that they were much more than just pillagers, and suffered from a hostile (clerical, anti-pagan) press.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Yeah, Bachar's a pansy ass! Let's beat him up!
Rash on my ass, you're an idiot!
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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L wrote "Our government is not taking care of Native Americans".
It isn't taking care of anyone... and will do even less in the near future. It's broke, it has bled us dry for stupid phoney wars, to bail out thieves on wall street, and to meaninglessly and uselessly enrich oil cartels while we in our tv and media induced stupor allowed and are still allowing it to happen. They don't care if things are ever fixed. They don't care if anybody has a shot. And they never will.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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If I were some of you, I would just ignore ignorant people like Bluering...
Unfortunately, ignoring such people is part of the problem.
New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett
For better or worse, this man is in my family tree (images of apes jumping through the woods).
He was a doctor and no doubt a well-meaning man.
EDIT ... and Rash, but then Rash sounds more than ignorant (I've traded words with Bluey, he's not a bad man), Rash sounds just like that, eczema at its worst.
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