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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Thanks for posting that, Fred!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Fred, thx for the insights!
Only one bit of feedback on this statement...
"Either you're doing something illegal or they're checking up on a serious situation."
Actually several of us don't do illegal things in the parks/regions, but have gotten hassled (i.e. questioned about where we were going walking down the road away from CRSP with no probable cause or reasonable suspicion). Nothing illegal about questioning, correct, but still kinda obvious we aren't growers when we walk down the road with a big pad attached to our back.
Also, the 'double parking' ticketing for both the blocker and the blockee outside of CRSP on the hwy was ridiculous for a while there. I don't go when it's crowded anymore, so not sure if that's still an issue. But even on the Summit side, I've received the 'stink eye' from LE and I'm a short haired white guy with climbing gear.
I appreciate your opinion and would just post this as something to consider where there has been a tradition of animosity between Rangers and climbers(as visible targets). As a known landowner in the area, you may not be exposed to that.
Aside from that, I, for one, welcome the insights and any support from the Homeowners along 35 that might be lent in basing a raptor closure program on good scientific research, if a closure program is justified.
In fact I think we can find a lot of common ground, e.g. we don't want graffitti painted on rocks (see tick mark threads even), and we really don't want grows or meth labs around our formations (toxic materials spilled near crags? no thx!). And moreover climber presence may dissuade bottle breaker presence!
thanks much,
Munge
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2010 - 03:19am PT
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I only have one question: Why, if MROSD is not openly hostile to climbers and climbing, did a gang of rangers, apparently totally on their own initiative, strip all of the bolts out of Eddie Tharp's new routes in the Aquarian Valley one afternoon without any warning whatsoever? His routes had all been put up a long time prior to the acquisition of the property by MROSD. The minute the property was transferred to MROSD ownership, the Ranger "strippers" arrived en masse and went to work. If a reporter from the Palo Alto Weekly hadn't looked into the issue, I'm sure that every route in the Aquarian Valley and Devil's Canyon would have been removed by the "Green Devils" no doubt.
And if Stu Langdoc is so sympathetic toward climbers and climbers' interests, why in the world did he press for the closure of the M&Ms cliff and the Pole Cat Cliff? They're both right next to the trail. No where near the so-called Nature Preserve. We all know that Stu Langdoc lives in San Marino, no where near the Skyline Ridge, but that his name is prominently featured in the minutes of the SS (Property Owner's) Association. As far as I can tell, Mr. Langdoc wanted to strip every bolt that had ever been placed out of every climb at Castle. To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a new bolted sport route put up at Indian, Summit or Castle Rock since 1995 or maybe 1996. Why in the world does this business keep going on and on and on if there isn't some higher level pollywonk behind it?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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"There is plenty of room for nesting on the walls where climbers haven't been close while the Peregrines are away."
can someone tell me what this means?
i have read, and re read it a hundred times and i don't get it.
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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Both Miles and Stu are great guys and friends to the climbing community. Without their mentoring many CR climbers would have gone to the Valley unprepared for Barker interaction. Unlike Barney Fife, Miles got more then 1 bullet while Stu gets none but they let him carry a chainsaw.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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I thought Aquarian Valley had been closed for years. I remember it being mentioned in the original Bay Area climbing guide (probably late 80's). I was surprised when I heard people talking about on Supertopo.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I thought Aquarian Valley had been closed for years. I remember it being mentioned in the original Bay Area climbing guide (probably late 80's). I was surprised when I heard people talking about on Supertopo.
Shhhhh...It's kind of a secret (except for being mentioned in Bruce's guide)
And it IS patrolled, take my word for it!
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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One thing to remember about the MROSD is their lands are preserves not parks. So their mission is different than the various park department. While I couldn't find climbing (ok or not) specifically mentioned, there a couple of points (climbers trails, cleaning, bolting etc.) they could easily use to not allow climbing.
Maybe get in touch with the mountain bike group (I don't recall their name) that works with MROSD. They may have some good info on who to initiate contact on the board.
edit: I think the mt bike group is out of Redwood City.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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part of the agreement between the people who sell their land to Open Space
is that the land be preserved as it was before the sale.
but, since the money to buy the land comes from local tax payers, i.e. us, they want us to be able to enjoy what we pay for.
so it is a question of balance, between the usage and preservation.
that is why it takes 3 years to get anything done, like a new trail.
now if you pay millions for land, and nobody gets to enjoy it, no good.
and the Rangers tend to error on the side of limiting access, as it is less hassle for them if everything stays status quo.
plus, they tend to be tree huggers supreme, which also affects usage.
hey, whats up with Bielwaski Rd?
it would be a fantastic mtn bike venue, is it open to hiking even?
see here:
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2010 - 03:59am PT
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The mountain bike group you're referring to is known by the acronym, ROMP, which stands for Responsible Organized Mountain Pedelers, and they're on the Web. They're the group, in fact, that successfully lobbied to have Santa Clara County Parks open up many miles of trails to mountain biking in Sanborn-Skyline County Park, including the .3 mile trail from the Summit Parking Lot to Summit Rock itself. Kind of ironic though that you can ride your bike there, but can't set foot on the rock once you dismount.
The main point about the raptor closure at Summit is that it should be seasonal, during the peregrine nesting season from January to late July, not a blanket closure all year round. Makes no sense and besides as Dr. Stewart said, it's "unprecedented", and does not conform to standard practices in Yosemite, Zion or anywhere else for that matter.
Sounds to me like the peregrine nesting issue is just being used as a convenient pretext to kick everyone, climbers and bottle throwers alike, off Summit Rock. Why? Who knows for sure? My guess is that it's funding. County Parks still hasn't got a budget to hire someone to go up and patrol Summit around sunset. But then again, who in the heck is going to monitor all the new mountain bike traffic up there?
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Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
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The main point about the raptor closure at Summit is that it should be seasonal, during the peregrine nesting season from January to late July, not a blanket closure all year round. Makes no sense and besides as Dr. Stewart said, it's "unprecedented", and does not conform to standard practices in Yosemite, Zion or anywhere else for that matter.
As pointed out above, there are dramatic differences between the cliffs of Yosemite, Zion, et al and the very small (in comparison) rock formations of Summit Rock. I feel such as limited amount of rookery space available to the falcons must dictate or influence their behavior. When dealing with human encroachment on the territory of wild animals, every situation is different, maybe even "unprecedented".
I am not a fan of the current management of Castle Rock/Summit Skyline but I have no wish to see the actions of climbers dramatically effect the habitat of such wild creatures as the Peregrine without further study. I have had my run-ins with Stu and Miles as well as the local property owners surrounding Aquarian Valley and I found none of them to be friendly or accommodating towards climbers in any way. However, I do not wish my opinions of these singular individuals to influence the survivability of a handful of wild animals.
What I can not stand is the feet-dragging on this issue. If they are going to close the cliff down indefinitely then get some real work done, monitoring the behavior of the falcons and their interactions with humans and their rookery. Lets settle this once and for all dammit!
-n
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I can't think of any 'unique' or unprecedented science-based circumstances that would dictate a year-round closer for Peregrines, even for a year-round resident pair. And neither must the county otherwise their own Master Trail Plan wouldn't reference the Peregrines nesting season and they'd also have a year-round construction and trimming ban. They don't have such a ban on their own activities outside of the dates referenced in the MTP because there is no basis for doing so. They may have reasons for a year-round climbing ban, but Peregrines can't be it. A climbing closure consistent with the Peregrine nesting dates listed in the County's MTP would, however, be entirely appropriate.
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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"One thing to remember about the MROSD is their lands are preserves not parks. So their mission is different than the various park department. While I couldn't find climbing (ok or not) specifically mentioned, there a couple of points (climbers trails, cleaning, bolting etc.) they could easily use to not allow climbing."
Chicken come home to roost. Many of their fat cat supporters have passed away. These generous donors have allotted the funds for a plaqued bench to be built and maintained, costing MROSD nothing. Preserve management is balking at putting in these free benches because they are in conflict with their mission. So the bolts went, some mtn biking trails were closed and now their supporters benches are not wanted. Preserve users love the benches and do not see them as a blight.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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They didn't seem to have problems putting plaques of people's names all over the groves in Purisima. I heard they aren't cheap!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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Actually, the Access Fund is currently in the process of having CDFW look into the issue of the nesting peregrines at Summit. Dr. Stewart has also volunteered to go out and monitor the pair. But since SC County Parks bases their actions on CDFW, the Access Fund feels their investigation of the matter should take precedence.
The point about the strippage of Eddie Tharp's bolts in the Aquarian is that they were present before MRSOD acquired the property. If MROSD rangers simply went in there and took them out after that, it certainly demonstrates their animosity toward climbing as an activity. However, the public meetings that took place in the Aquarian in 1996 did lead to an agreement: No more bolts or moss scraping and climbing will be allowed on all climbs that existed prior to the acquisition of the property by MROSD. You can read about it in the Palo Alto Weekly (Wed. June 19, 1996), p. 26. At the present time, climbing is not banned in the Aquarian Valley or Devil's Canyon no matter what MROSD might want you to believe. Just don't wire brush or rap bolt and you can climb there to your heart's content.
Also, since California Dept of Wildlife advocates seasonal closures for raptor nesting, it sounds very much as if SC County Parks enacted their blanket ban on all climbing at Summit very much on their own initiative (i.e. interpreting the rules to match their own pre-defined biases). IOWs: They were looking for an excuse & the nesting raptors provided them with one.
Anyone who thinks California State Parks, Ranger J. Rule, Stu Langdoc, Santa Clara County Parks, SSA, and MROSD are "pro-climber" should immediately seek professional assistance from a mental health specialist. Climbers, as a user group. obviously rank far below dog-walkers, equestrians, and mountain bikers in their social hierarchy.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Anyone who thinks California State Parks, Ranger J. Rule, Stu Langdoc, Santa Clara County Parks, SSA, and MROSD are "pro-climber" should immediately seek professional assistance from a mental health specialist. Climbers, as a user group. obviously rank far below dog-walkers, equestrians, and mountain bikers in their social hierarchy.
Again, this sort of us-vs-them talk is particularly helpful to your efforts. With regard to those other groups it's probably because they're better organized and approach the matter in a more objective manner (at least in public, such as here).
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2010 - 03:35am PT
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The matter is being approached objectively, off-line, in private where things are actually getting done. ST is just a place to vent emotions like rage and anxiety that are deeply repressed in the dark underworld of unconscious. Nothing is ever "settled" here.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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is there a North Skyline Association, or is that all controlled by the hooch farmers?
and mountain lions?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2010 - 05:55pm PT
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The MROSD ranger gang rules that 'hood. When are they gonna put in a requition for an armored personnel carrier or a pint-sized armored car with a 2 cm gun?
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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I belive there is a Kings Mountain association.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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