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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jul 31, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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The media situation in Venezuela is clearly a mess. The problem is an almost total lack of objectivity and detachment, without which opinion and felings are presented as plain facts.
Chavez awoke the political conscience of an entire nation, but unlike legendary leaders, he has polarized rather than harmonized his people. This is in keeping with Marxist-tainted folk like Castro and Ortega, themselves power mongers who would no more hand over contol to the people than they would welcome transparency. Such leaders, lacking a consolidated self, define themselvers by the "enemies" they push off, revolt against, and seek to conquer. Remove their "enemies" and these folks are nothing more than clouded visionaries who know no other game but cowboys and Indians.
The crazy thing is that people keep trying to frame the Honduras debacle in terms of things legal or illegal, moral or immoral - as though that has anything to do with how things shake down in a banana republic like Honduras. As someone said earlier, whoever controls the military (or else the military itself) is always "right." In very few of these countries are there anything resembling true institutions, with inviolate laws for which all are subject. Here, in the third world, we have the reverse of the universal law - Principals above Personalies.
Such a shame . . .
Honduras will buckle eventually, soon as the aid dries up completely. They have limited resources so no means of self-sustaining over the long term.
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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The article reads: "Ortega says Honduras may try to provoke Nicaragua. Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega claimed Honduras' coup-installed government might try to provoke a border military incident "to distract attention" from international efforts to restore ousted President Manuel Zelaya.
Ortega cited no evidence in making the claims, which come as Honduras' interim leader dampened hopes for a negotiated solution to the country's crisis, capping days of mixed signals by saying firmly that there's no way the ousted president can return to power. "There is a danger that, to try to distract attention from the internal conflict they themselves created, they might organize a group of people with military training to attack a Honduran army position, for that to serve as a pretext for a retaliation against Nicaragua," Ortega said in a speech in Managua, the Nicaraguan capital.
Ortega, who has been hosting Zelaya and a few hundred of his supporters camped out near the Honduran border, did not offer details on when such a provocation might occur. "But they shouldn't think they would have a cakewalk in Nicaragua," said Ortega.
The two countries' border was the scene of much of the fighting in the 1980s Contra war, in which U.S.-backed rebels fought Ortega's Sandinista government, and Ortega noted "we are not talking about an army that doesn't have a history of aggression against Nicaragua."
A reply reads: "#2 The Hondurans are a few steps ahead of him on this. The Honduran army are *expecting* the Nicaraguans to cross the border to make mischief. And not too long ago, that was a "hot" border anyway, which means it is well mapped and planned by the Hondurans.
After the Sandinistas came to power the first time, the US went to some lengths to insure that the Hondurans could make a military adventure into Honduras a very painful experience for Ortega."
I follow this stuff to fool away time. What's true here is that Honduras has the training (from the US) and arms (almost certainly from the US as well) to defend their borders. NO Central American militgary outfit has the capacity or resources to actually invade another country and stay there for any length of time. Remember that both Nicaragua and Honduras are almost totally broke. There's no money to sustain any kind of military campaign, just Contra type incursions as meaningless as they are disruptive.
It's curious to watch this theater this time around because no one in intervening or forcing the issue snd Zalaya is floundering around trying to grab power back.
Might be strange to see how this plays out. Not sure anyone really cares becasue there's no resources in Honduras and Ortega is a nutter.
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Might be strange to see how this plays out. Not sure anyone really cares because there's no resources in Honduras and Ortega is a nutter.
I disagree somewhat, Largo. Personally I see Honduras as a good sign of the future and hope for South America. Many people are against the neo-Marxist intentions of other SA coutries.
Honduras could be the 'shining city on the hill' in SA.
I follow this situation quite closely, as well as Chavez, Ortega, et al. I think this is very important, more important than most think, for the future welfare of our Southern brothers.
Many in the media and gov't are playing this very wrong. We should be supporting Honduras now more than ever. We turned our backs on a gov't that is striving for a true democracy. What does that say about us.
Reminds me of bailing on the Iraq shiites in Southern Iraq and the Kurds in the North after Ira#1.
http://faustasblog.com/?p=14378
Chavez and the Swedish rockets given to FARC rebels...
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-colombia-rockets28-2009jul28,0,1302779.story
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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for those still doubting the legality of Zelaya's 'removal' (not coup) from office...
On the Honduran constitution…
"Article 239," Mr. Estrada noted, "specifically states that any president who so much as proposes the permissibility of reelection 'shall cease forthwith' in his duties, and Article 4 provides that any 'infraction' of the succession rules constitutes treason." Congress had little choice but to take its next step. It convened "immediately after Zelaya's arrest," Mr. Estrada wrote, "condemning his illegal conduct, and overwhelmingly voting (122-6) to remove him from office."
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Quote from that article: "Here's a fear - that this administration has deep, abiding sympathy for socialist solutions both in the United States and elsewhere and thinks Mr. Zelaya could be just what Honduras needs. Maybe that is a nutty conclusion and absolutely wrong. I hope so, and I hope the administration proves it wrong by changing its stance."
That is a nutty conclusion and it wouldn't be corrected by Obamma changing his stance. In no western democracy is the president kidnapped at dawn by armed soldiers, stuffed onto a plane and flow out of the country and told to never come back. This is strictly banana republic tomfollery and that's what most western powers are railing about. Zelaya himself is a bumbler and a rube.
And for the record, few Latin American countries are looking to ape the US in its political process. Unbridaled, profit rabid capitalism has ruined us, and to think other nations want their fair share of same is to underestimate our current jam and totally misread the asparations of Latin American countries. Moreover, to suggest that following our lead would garnish "hope" in Central and South America is to live in some other time and place.
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Unbridaled, profit rabid capitalism has ruined us, and to think other nations want their fair share of same is to underestimate our current jam and totally misread the asparations of Latin American countries. Moreover, to suggest that following our lead would garnish "hope" in Central and South America is to live in some other time and place.
A little jaudiced by recent events, are we?
Of course "unbridaled, rabid capitalism" is not a good thing. It's also not what were traditionally about. We were about a fairly regulated free market. Not 'unbridaled".
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Unbridaled, profit rabid capitalism has ruined us, and to think other nations want their fair share of same is to underestimate our current jam and totally misread the asparations of Latin American countries. Moreover, to suggest that following our lead would garnish "hope" in Central and South America is to live in some other time and place.
A little jaudiced by recent events, are we?
Of course "unbridaled, rabid capitalism" is not a good thing. It's also not what were traditionally about. We were about a fairly regulated free market. Not 'unbridaled".
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Jaundiced? Too benign a word given that theives in the free market plundered my stock portfolio and my daughter's college fund.
There's no going back - the question is, where to now. I'm convinced that the answer does not lie with "aging white folk." Some new blood will see us into the next phase - or not.
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Aug 28, 2009 - 10:51am PT
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Sounds like a fair deal to me...and an end to this fiasco.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/28/honduran-president-makes-new-offer-to-end-politica/
The deal:
• Both Mr. Micheletti and Mr. Zelaya would resign.
• The next in line under the constitution would become interim president.
• New elections would be scheduled and monitored by independent foreign observers.
• Mr. Zelaya may return as a private citizen.
• Mr. Micheletti will support a decision by the Honduran congress to grant "political amnesty [not involving common crimes] to all parties relating to events of June 28."
I found this interesting...
Lanny Davis, a prominent Washington attorney who represents the Honduran Latin American Business Council, said the new proposal "shows Mr. Micheletti is not concerned about power -- he is offering to resign entirely from public life. ... The question is, does Mr. Zelaya acknowledge that no one, even the president, is above the law?"
and
A U.S. State Department official told the Reuters news agency on Thursday that department staff have recommended that the ouster of Mr. Zelaya formally be declared a "military coup," which could deprive Honduras of millions of dollars in aid beyond about $18 million already suspended.
The State Dept seems bent on harassing the country while the deal seems damn fair...and lawful.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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State Dept screws Honduras!
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/03/2051461.aspx
from the link;
The statement below from spokesman Ian Kelly says the the restoration of aid to Honduras will depend on Honduras returning to "democratic, constitutional governance."
and yet their constitution endorses this;
On the Honduran constitution…
"Article 239," Mr. Estrada noted, "specifically states that any president who so much as proposes the permissibility of reelection 'shall cease forthwith' in his duties, and Article 4 provides that any 'infraction' of the succession rules constitutes treason." Congress had little choice but to take its next step. It convened "immediately after Zelaya's arrest," Mr. Estrada wrote, "condemning his illegal conduct, and overwhelmingly voting (122-6) to remove him from office."
So we're denouncing legit democracy and supporting Socialist dictators.
That's nice.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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State Dept screws Honduras!
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/03/2051461.aspx
from the link;
The statement below from spokesman Ian Kelly says the the restoration of aid to Honduras will depend on Honduras returning to "democratic, constitutional governance."
and yet their constitution endorses this;
On the Honduran constitution…
"Article 239," Mr. Estrada noted, "specifically states that any president who so much as proposes the permissibility of reelection 'shall cease forthwith' in his duties, and Article 4 provides that any 'infraction' of the succession rules constitutes treason." Congress had little choice but to take its next step. It convened "immediately after Zelaya's arrest," Mr. Estrada wrote, "condemning his illegal conduct, and overwhelmingly voting (122-6) to remove him from office."
So we're denouncing legit democracy and supporting Socialist dictators.
That's nice.
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Bluey, you're doing it again - interpreting things according to your own agenda and perspective. The situation is far more nuanced than what you're seeing, and what's more, you're still prone to thinking in terms oif the US being the political police of the world, and especially Central and South America. If you only knew the enmity we have engendered from our meddling down south, you'd understand the wisdom of letting the thing play out without our trying to force the issue.
The fact remains, no matter how illegal Zalaya was in seeking an end to term limits per his presidency, the military intervened and boosted the guy out of the country in his pajamas. That is not democratic process.
The fact is, exporting and enforcing democracy is no longer a priority for America. We have a lot of house cleaning to do, and diverting attention to another country is to miss the real issues.
JL
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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So now we are "boosting the enmity" by interfering in the lawful exercise of a Democratically elected government?
Largo,
you seem to leave out that he was ejected by the Honduran supreme court with the full support of the legislative branches, including his own party.
The military carried out a lawful order from both the legislative and judicial branches of government to remove a guy that was in complete violation of their law and subject to trial if he ever comes back.
He got off easy. He should be cooling his heels in a Honduran jail cell.
The guy is a totalitarian kook.
But then, those have been popular with the American left since Stalin.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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The situation is far more nuanced than what you're seeing, and what's more, you're still prone to thinking in terms oif the US being the political police of the world, and especially Central and South America. If you only knew the enmity we have engendered from our meddling down south, you'd understand the wisdom of letting the thing play out without our trying to force the issue.
The fact remains, no matter how illegal Zalaya was in seeking an end to term limits per his presidency, the military intervened and boosted the guy out of the country in his pajamas. That is not democratic process.
Largo, 2 things. He was forced out by the military at THE ORDER OF THE CONGRESS AND HIGHER COURT. That's not a coup d'etat.
It was absolutely a democratic process when 2 branches of gov't said he had violated the constitution and has to go. Their constitution demands it!
Our 'meddling down South' is in the form of punishing a gov't that FOLLOWED THE RULE OF LAW AND IT'S OWN CONSTITUTION, we should be applauding the application of law.
You sound like Chavez. "The imperialists up North are meddling".
Yeah, we just shafted one of the true democracies down there by sanctioning them for their lawful regard for order and their own constitution.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Largo,
you seem to leave out that he was ejected by the Honduran supreme court with the full support of the legislative branches, including his own party.
The military carried out a lawful order from both the legislative and judicial branches of government to remove a guy that was in complete violation of their law and subject to trial if he ever comes back.
He got off easy. He should be cooling his heels in a Honduran jail cell.
The guy is a totalitarian kook.
But then, those have been popular with the American left since Stalin.
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Okay, you guys are going to make me work for this, but fair enough. I have this one totally dialed. I just didn't want to take the time to explain it. And wise cracks about me sounding like Chavez are patently absurd.
First, this: "You seem to leave out that he was ejected by the Honduran supreme court with the full support of the legislative branches, including his own party."
In countries like Houduras, there is only one authority: The military. Had they not been totally behind the coup, thy never would have nabbed Zalaya in his PJs and jammed him on that plane.
But who was Zalaya, anyhow? He was a man of huge privilege who part way into his term got meglomania and started aping the perogative of that gran narcissist, Hugo Chavez. The thirteen or so big money families who basically own Honduras were suddenly looking at an actual threat to their hegemony and so Zalaya was sent packing.
All this talk about democratic process and supreme courts and so forth is all bollocks. The country is basically broke and living off handouts of fuel from Chavez and green money from us and the IMF. It wasn't that Zalaya (who many think is "mental")didn't deserve to be run out of Dodge, it's just the manner that it was handled - banana republic all the way (minus the bullet holes). What you're seeing in Honduras is a classic power struggle, NOT a legitimate democratic process. Only a gringo would think otherwise.
The US cannot back the current government because they arrived in power without due process, so if Obama endorced the way things came down with Zalaya, he would tacitly be endorcing any country to simply stuf their president on a plane or boat once he screwed up or became unpopular or threatened the powers that be. If Obama did that, he would be totally written off by most South American regimes, few of which are not open to similar deportations if the winds blows against them.
I said all along that things were going to heat up soon as the money started drying up and the Generals stopped getting paid. That was totally the key in clearing up this mess - cut off the hand outs. Once the cash flow stopped running to the military, they would have grabbed Zalaya and marched him back into the presidential palace by gun point if need be. The country is broke, ladies and gentlemen. There's only one thing that interests most everyone in power down there: dough. All this yapping about democracy is totally secondary to the people in power getting their money.
Anyhow, sure enough, the government was starting to stove the middle of last month, when the dough was running out, then the damn Iternational Monetary Fund (IMF) went and sent $150 million to Honduras on August 28th, 2009 (according to the Central Bank President, Sandra Midence). She added that IMF plans to grant another $13.8 million in aid in a few weeks, despite objections from the international community.
There's only one way that this was every allowed to happen and that's because the US didn't stop the sudden infusion of funds, which in the corckscrewed path of Latino politics, means that
Obama almost certainly sides with the coup camp.
One source of reasonable (but superficial) information on this is:
Hondurannews.com.
If you want to read the shocking truth on Chavez, go to:
Caracasgringo.wordnews.com
The fact that Caracasgringo hasn't been shot already is miraculous. I don't know where he gets his info but it's super high level shite very professionally presented,though heavily critical of El Presidente, Hugo C.
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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In countries like Houduras, there is only one authority: The military. Had they not been totally behind the coup, thy never would have nabbed Zalaya in his PJs and jammed him on that plane.
I may be wrong, but I heard that Zelaya gave the military raises. An attempt to buy them off and have them in his pocket maybe?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I don't have time to write up the quotes right now, but De Tocqueville wrote up some observations about the Spanish speaking portions of the western hemisphere in 1830 that are still applicable. (he had some equally scathing things to say about his ex countrymen in Quebec).
All of the Spanish speaking western hemisphere is laboring under the yoke of their heritage, the patron/peon system with all its corruption and inequality.
This does look like it was one of the few instances of a truly Democratic enforcement of the rule of law. You are correct in that the military held the keys to the power, but they didn't usurp the authority of the civilian government and the courts, they only carried out their mandate.
Even the oath that all US military take on enlistment would have applied here,
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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It's kind of ironic in the 'other' thread that Largo is lecturing me about not listening to people you disagree with who are telling you something that is, in this case, legally sound, as opposed to based on political philosophy of the other thread.
Don't make me put you in the corner, John.
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