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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 29, 2014 - 01:55am PT
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p1 of Needle Spoon
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 29, 2014 - 01:58am PT
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sharpend pulling the roof
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tom Carter
Social climber
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May 29, 2014 - 11:10am PT
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Dennis Oakeshott was a remarkable climber. Very solid. I remember asking him about the crux on Shineshine in the early 80's - he showed me the perfect training knobs on Kitty Dome!
Those Indian Rock boys knew their stuff!
Tc
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okie
Trad climber
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May 29, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
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Yeah, the Hoodwink roof is cool. Improbable that a route would go free over that. Only done it once. I remember the friction above gave value as well.
Ed's photo of Needle Spoon appears foreshortened. The bolts are further apart than they appear. What a beautiful route, with that golden polish. I think the first time I did it we did clip that bolt way over to the right. At that time it wasn't all that old of a bolt and the rest of the route was prolly quarter inchers as well (can't remember) which begs the question was it retrobolted and if so why not place a bolt in a more logical spot? And if that old bolt is really considered part of the route why wasn't it replaced too? This last time I did it I didn't clip that bolt out to the right because it is now a relic and really in a strange spot over there.
Anyway, respect to Dennis for establishing a classic the hard way.
It's interesting to hear the Tom Higgins ethics essay discussed. I remember as a young climber reading that and on account of the tone of it taking it as some sort of gospel.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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May 29, 2014 - 04:33pm PT
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Changing the nature of climbs is the point. Do the FAer's own the rock? No. Do they own the idea is the question. I support anyone's right to put up a route in any way they want and then defend it. Sport, rap, trad, aid, chinese, french.......Climbs are an expression of the self,times, community,etc., like many other forms of expression. The reason to keep routes intact are to keep the uniqueness of person, time and place. To change them is to lose them. There are many new climbs reflecting what you are suggesting Flip Flop. They are safe by today's "standard" and reflect the FA's intent. There are climbs that are being retro'd in TM with FA consent for safety.
I don't think safety is the issue (one can choose to do a death route or not). It's a question of changing one's art, statement, vision. Of a community ethic of time and place in history. And maintaining that so we can see and relive all those different visions. Maintaining a variety if you will much like impressionist paintings vs. modernist etc.
Anyone is free to go out and make there own statement. Plenty of slab left in TM. IF it's grid bolted or run-out doesn't matter to me. Simply respecting and defending the FA's vision is.
Hoodwink is well regarded and popular as an example of it's time and place. As such, it has defenders of it's faith. But does that mean the other less known climbs should be altered? Climbing has many games and they should all be respected, otherwise we end up with the color brown.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 29, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
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Excellent Post^^^
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okie
Trad climber
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May 29, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
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Yeah, just asking a question about Needle Spoon. My default setting is to respect the FA. Proper ethics require permission to alter a route.
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Chris Wegener
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Thanks for the update on Needle Spoon. Impressive lead done ground up.
One point I wish to make refers to the comments of the conga lines on climbs like West Crack or South Crack. There are many more climbs, that with possibly one or two more bolts, would become classics as well.
That would spread climbers out and allow them explore and appreciate more of Tuloumne Meadows.
It is the spiciness of TM climbing that keeps me coming back and I fully want to maintain that atmosphere on routes. That is why I think several of the newer routes have strayed from the correct mix of protection and nervousness.
Another point that needs to me mentioned is that some of the finest routes were put up in a time of scarcity. The climbers that put them up did not have the money to buy more than a few bolts and they stretched out the climbs to be able to afford the bolts they did use. Some protection consisted of fixed pins that have since fallen out or slings that are now so worn they can't hold anything.
We need to recognize that future climbers are going to retro bolt Tuolumne and it would seem to behoove us to appreciate that a little intervention now will prevent wholesale renovation later.
Just sayin'.
Regards,
Chris
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Seems to me that a traditional ground-up X route should stay a traditional ground-up X route. No need to re-write history to popularize such routes for the masses. A climb is like an original musical score recorded on vinyl. That's it. It was done that way. Why alter it when there are so many other "safe" routes with plenty of bolts and even natural pro? No one is sticking a gun to the back of your head and making you go out and lead an X-route. It's totally your choice. Of course, I can see retro-bolting old trad routes so that the new bolts are modern, safe and in some cases more in the right location. A route as historically significant as "Body and Soul" ought to be preserved in the same configuration as it was put up on FA. This does go along with the concept of Tuolumne as a "climbing museum" I fear, but that's more in line with the way it is today. It isn't like there are 50 new routes per month going up all summer that way it was in the 70s, 80s and early 90s. Nowadays, the place has gotten positively "Byzantine" and "scholarly".
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jun 17, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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Oh, the very words, Bruce! Thx.
I found these pics of Mr. Roger Breedlove of Cleveland, OH, while I was looking for some shoes today.
These were on sale, so I took 'em.
You look good, Mr. Breedlove!
These were in the "last chance" box by the door, so I grabbed them, too.
Forty winks for two old thieves?
Thanks, Mr. Breedlove. You rock in Cleveland, HO!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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fixing some links
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2018 - 07:05pm PT
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best bump
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