Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
CClarke
climber
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
|
Hi Everyone:
I don't think there is any doubt that CCH has done a poor job of quality control. Also, Aric has done a lot of good work to show breaking below the rated strength of many or even most units.
But, where the rubber hits the road, is how the units behave in marginal placements in real life falls. I don't care if I fall to my demise because the unit breaks or because it doesn't hold or fit. We need some testing to show how the various cams work in the type of placements where the gear is iffy. It might not meet the rigors of science but that's why I love my Aliens. They fit and bite where other cams seem less viable.
That said, I have funk-tested with 3mm cord all my Aliens to make sure there aren't any totally dismal brazes.
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
|
Hmmm... What I'm wondering (not even sure it's feasible) is if you can re-do the brazing on your aliens and make them right? Is that possible? For instance, I know a cam maker who does awesome work. If this is possible, I'd be willing to throw some coin his direction for this service. It sure sucks MAJOR ass to have to do this tho, when you've already spent the purchase price on the cams....
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2009 - 06:39pm PT
|
No one is arguing the designed [realworld] performance of Aliens. I didn't buy two sets of Hybrids because I didn't like the way they worked out in the world. That isn't, and never has been the issue. The issue is their manufacturing execution sucks. You don't care because you haven't fallen and been injured when the head popped off of an Alien you just placed. Hey, the world is full of folks who can't see or understand things until it hits them personally.
Again, the issue isn't how well good Aliens perform, it's whether your Aliens or any Aliens you might buy is one of the good ones. What Aric's testing, and the accumulated documentation on four years of RC.com threads show is that buying or using an Alien you personally didn't test is a total crap shoot with dubious odds. I don't mind gambling a bit or taking a risk when I decide to bust a move on rock; but gambling when I reach for my rack is an altogether different story.
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
|
Gee... Thanks, Locker!
:)
|
|
mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
|
Somebody tallied up the responses a few pages up, so back to the original post: got a set of C3s recently and they are fantastic. Action, security, spring tension, all super well designed and manufactured. If I need doubles, the other set is old Metolius up to red or black. I always used to carry a yellow and red Alien on the rack, now don't bother to have those in the Valley but like to have them available at the Leap or some other places. They are great in weird little flared placements. Never liked the smaller Aliens much except in the Gunks, axle is too wide. Also never bothered to stuff any cam into a bottoming vertical placement, always assumed it would rip out or tweak apart. Better to just get two lobes in and you know just how marginal it is. One definite disadvantage of Aliens in rock with bumpy cracks is that the lobes can umbrella out and you are screwed for removal. Doesn't happen as much with other brands, in my experience.
|
|
GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
|
Those broken cams in the pictures above... I carry them in my car. A couple of weeks ago I showed them to a couple of big name wall vets... They looked at them and said "I will never put 1100#'s on mine".
Thats cool.
We must all use our own critical thinking skills in choosing and using gear. I think that is one of my favorite parts of the sport, it is one giant puzzle.
|
|
adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
|
And that was exactly my point when starting this mess, GhoulweJ.... If you you have and use them be sure to get them tested to whatever force you're comfortable being over. The Red that kicked this all off failed at ~4.5kN and in spite of what anyone has to say about it being bootied or 3 strands of the cable being broken there was an obvious manufacturing defect in the braze that was apparent upon cross sectioning the head.
If you're aiding big walls like many here on ST do, then perhaps you won't put that kind of force on the gear. That is unless something rips... FWIW I've hit 5kN bouncing around on a nylon runner attached to the test equipment, so I suspect that the Red would have failed with aggressive bounce testing and sent the user for a ride.
And that there is the whole point of this "witch hunt"... defects have been found in the wild that would have failed under the loads commonly found in either free climbing falls or careless bounce testing while aid climbing. People like Flatlander just don't get it as they probably made up their minds long ago on this issue and are unwilling to accept current evidence of there being a problem. Along similar lines are the people who claim that their gear is fine as its held multiple whippers... This shows a clear misunderstanding of the physics behind fall forces and may one day find out the hard way that they should have not been sleeping in class. But they seem to mostly be of similar mindset to Flatlander and there's no reasoning with them.
So long story short, Aliens are a good design with poor execution and individual pieces shouldn't be trusted unless individually proof tested. Given the lobe hardness issue proof testing is a problem I don't currently have an answer for, and the only comment CCH has had on this matter to this point is accusing me of being paid by some unnamed startup company that's looking to edge in on their business.
Sigh. What a mess.
|
|
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 07:35am PT
|
Somebody doesn't get it,but it's not Flatlander.
|
|
GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 10:22am PT
|
adatesman:
You way want to consider a different approach. Maybe not advising climbers of what they should or should not do with their Aliens.
Maybe just share what you have done / results.
Climbers can then (and always will) do what they want.
I expect most people appreciate your efforts, really, I think they do. It may be that you begin to lose them when your "opinion of individual action" comes forward.
I too was frustrated when people flamed my test results but then I just moved on and chose to just share the info. People can then do what they like.
Cheers,
Jay Renneberg
|
|
adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 11:41am PT
|
You're probably right Jay, and that's the approach I'm taking with the report of the testing at R&S. Unfortunately these discussions are far more interesting than the tedium of doing the writeup, so I keep getting drawn back to them. I'm hoping to finish it today as I'd very much like to be done with it. At the moment its ~4 pages long with a couple more pages to go, I think, with 11 pages of documentation/appendices that don't yet include any of the ~350 pictures I have.
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 11:52am PT
|
"I don't mind gambling a bit or taking a risk when I decide to bust a move on rock; but gambling when I reach for my rack is an altogether different story."
If that is the case for you, then by all means don't use aliens.
Frankly, I don't see the difference. As I've said before, having to factor poor quality control into your calculated risk assements really sucks. But this seems not much different than trying to factor in what piece is going to work best on a pin-scarred free route.
Or the guy that is climbing in Yosemite without a helmet telling me that I'm taking stupid risks for climbing on aliens...
|
|
ps
Trad climber
slc, ut
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
|
Aric-
While I appreciate your alien pics, when I read this thread, I was really hoping for people's opinions on small cams, not a derailed thread on reasons to not trust aliens. You have several of these threads on several different sites, and I've appreciated them. But next time, please start your own thread and don't derail one that is supposed to be about what small cams are best. It's fine to say that you like X, and that Y has had failures, but to continue re-posting all of the pics that belong in a different thread really defeats the purpose of what the OP was asking for.
It would be nice to hear more peoples thoughts on what they like to use for small cams. I'm currently using Ultralight TCUS + UL powercams and love them. I wish the stem was longer, like the old welded version, but they still work just fine for me. How light they are is sick... so, one more vote for Metolius TCUs.
|
|
jsj
climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
|
"Along similar lines are the people who claim that their gear is fine as its held multiple whippers... This shows a clear misunderstanding of the physics behind fall forces."
Can you explain this? Maybe I was sleeping in class but this is the very reason I trust my Aliens.
|
|
kev
climber
CA
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
|
Randy,
You mentioned re-brazing them. I may have access to a really good machine shop that could help out there. Let me know what you find out and if you don't have a guy to do it I'll check.
kev
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
|
hey kev - cool! I sent out an email to a friend of mine who manufactures cams yesterday. Still waiting to hear back from him to see what he says. I'll let you know my findings... I can't see any reason it can't be done. But what do I know...
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
|
Nefarious--
Then once they're rebrazed all you'll need to do is test/swap out/redrill all the lobes and axles, and you'll be good to go.
What a nightmare.
|
|
adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
|
My apologies for the thread drift once again, PS. It was certainly not my intention to do this to your thread and I said that many, many posts ago when I first questioned Flatlander about why he thought the testing was "lame". I would have much preferred had he and others moved it over to the other thread, but alas they stayed here so that's where where my responses went.
@JSJ- Its rather simple, really... Typical falls don't put anywhere near the amount of force on the gear that people think they do.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
|
ps,
Most people who climb in Yosemite know that the best small cam design is Alien. ST is pretty Yosemite oriented. So a thread on the best small cams, when the answer as far as the best design is obviously Aliens, is definitely where to discuss Alien issues, especially since more recent testing has brought even die-hard Alien fans around.
I have older TCUs, but the newer ultralights are very short (too short), which is very limiting for getting them into good placements. Master Cams - used a friends set once in Red Rocks, worked fine there but so do stoppers, no one else I know has them, who knows? C3s - center lobe is too wide, the whole thing is too stiff, and it's too hard to pull the trigger when really pumped, but I like the 000 since it's about the same size as a #2 Lowe ball. Other small cams I have opinions on are not sold anymore, so not much use...
|
|
ps
Trad climber
slc, ut
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
|
Aric-
Hey, it's not my thread, I just really liked how it started out and was hoping to get more pros/cons. It's all good, I'd just love to get it back on track now. edit: and it obviously wasn't all your doing, shouldn't have singled you out, so to speak. Apologies since I came across like that.
Greg-
I hear you on the length of the new TCUs (weird that they left the offset TCUs at the old length.
Finally-
I wonder a couple things about the master cams:
1. How does the stem length compare to the ULs? Longer?
2. This issue of "perpendicular to the wall --> upper cam lobes retracting when the cam bends 90 degreed" is something that is a turn-off to me. I'm really not worried about the kevlar trigger lines (I have a supercam and have never had issues), but the auto-trigger release is somewhat disconcerting. Not that I usually, if ever, get a placement like that... but I'd really like to know if a cam is going to pull on me if I put it in sticking straight out.. ie, it's a guarenteed trigger release.
|
|
adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
|
No worries PS... :-)
BTW, I mentioned a while back that I love my WC Zeros. What I forgot to mention is that they're the newer long version... I also have a pair of original, short ones and yeah, they're too short and people who based their opinion on that version may find they like the longer ones. The trigger bar is still on the narrow side, but I don't find it to be a problem.
I also kind of like the old Splitter Gear 4cams I have, which I mention because the Trango version seems pretty nice. I recently got one of those, but haven't used it yet. The ergonomics are much, much better on the Trango ones.
-a.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!