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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 15, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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I think that mandatory rescue insurance is on the way, the same way it now exists for drivers.
Harding and Caldwell did NOT request a rescue, and the bonehead that greenlighted it should be responsible.
If you mean the bogus poacher search, well I think that guy Affenhouser or whatever should be crucified.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 15, 2009 - 11:09am PT
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They talk a lot about billing for rescues here in New Hampshire,and may well have passed some legislation to that effect.To me,it looks like pretty chossy ground.Most of the rescues that cost money here involve Fish and Game looking for folks.It's pretty rare that when you are lost you personally ask to be"rescued",so rescues are triggered by concerned loved ones,or sign-in,sign-out monitors.So who pays if you don't personally feel you need a rescue,and how much?Who gets the bill if you are dead?Will people be much more reluctant to report others overdue if it means firing up the Lama?
Hugh Herr and his friend were long overdue,and in definite need of rescue,but found by a skier.What would they pay for,the carry out?The entire search,though unsucessful?
Injured folks around Cathedral and Whitehorse are evaced by a mixture of local firefighter/rescue personal and Mountain Rescue volunteers.Further afield Fish and Game gets involved,but individually lacks the manpower to effect a carry-out,or high angle rescue.
We just had a sizeable search for a lost Eagle Scout,who handled his situation pretty well,and was maybe thirty minutes from self rescue and going along well enough.So,are we going to bill people who are running late,or changed their itinerary?
Charging for it,not so simple.Many things seem to go downhill once they are being charged for.The Forest Service now charges us to park at parking lots created with our own tax dollars.The result is a Disney World mentality where people throw trash around because there are people being paid to pick it up,versus a feeling of community stewardship.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 15, 2009 - 11:21am PT
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Agree with you about that last bit, but with mandatory insurance people could be more accountable.
Imagine discounts for those who go years without problems, or for those with special skills; WFR or even a guide's certificate.
Lets raise the bar on the skill level of those that use public resources.
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bearbnz
Trad climber
East Side, California
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2009 - 11:44am PT
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"Lets raise the bar on the skill level of those that use public resources"
Let's not, we were all newbs at one time or another, should we be excluded from starting our outdoor apprenticeship?
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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May 15, 2009 - 12:03pm PT
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Dear Scared Silly, thanks for your most well informed words on solvents etc. I think you make a good point about embrittlement. I do however think that Largo is correct about the amount of solvent in a middle mark being insignificant. Lastly, some tests show that middle marks do not affect rope strength. Perhaps some well controlled experiments could be done to settle the issue once and for all. Frankly though, I just use bi-color ropes and the problem is solved. Perhaps we should insist that bicolor be standard and not raise the price of the rope. Does it cost the manufacturer any more to bicolor the rope if it is a multicolored sheath (nearly all ropes)? So we should insist that they stop charging more for these bicolor ropes and argue for safety reasons. I suppose that 200 meter spools of rope cannot be bicolor and so those who wish to roll off a spool are out of luck.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 15, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
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"Lets raise the bar on the skill level of those that use public resources."
You want to get the Feds involved in the certification of climbers? We don't have any private organizations that are large enough to do it. Before WW2, Sierra Club, Mountaineers and Mazamas essentially performed that function, but we don't have anything comparable today, unless it's climbing gyms.
That sounds like a really bad idea to me.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 15, 2009 - 12:17pm PT
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Jesus,climbing gyms are the start of the problem.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 15, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
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Chain,
middle marks are not a solution
Bearbuns, if newbs screw things up more they need to be channeled into programs that mitigate this
klk,
I'm not in favor of added layers of regulation either, but what you fail to realize is that the rock here in Zion is so fragile that, unless measures similar to those in hunting, SCUBA, and river running are implemented, then we doom future generations to a dismal legacy.
And I think that trumps any feeling of having one's anarchistic impulses infringed upon.
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bearbnz
Trad climber
East Side, California
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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"Bearbuns, if newbs screw things up more they need to be channeled into programs that mitigate this "
As I'm sure you realize, mandating safety is not the answer. The accident in question here involved two experienced climbers, and mandatory remedial training or a requirement for rescue insurance would not have changed that. More bureauracracy, oversight, or government intrusion is not what we need. They did fine during the early stages of their apprenticeship, making the assumption that this is their first serious incident...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 15, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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But why should taxpayers pay for it?
This rescue cost could eat up the taxes of a dozen conscientious hard workers for a year.
Insurance would spread the cost among the actual users with those who have made appropriate effort bearing less of a burden than those who can't/won't/haven't.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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May 15, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Misc comments.
Middle marks in the sheath are made by changing the weave. This typically causes the sheath to have a different feel to it. Very subtle. When I had a bi-color rope made for me that was 8.1 the mfg had to do some tests first to make sure they could switch the weave without making the core too stiff or have a noticeable bump that would be subject to increased wear.
As for the cost of a bi-colored rope versus a solid rope $20-$40 more. Not sure why the cost difference but I would assume assume that the weaving pattern is controlled by a template that must be switched out. However, I would assume by now it is computer controlled.
Middle marks are good for finding the middle when rappelling. Would it have helped in preventing this accident? I doubt. Why? because as one climbs more rope is often played out than the actual height of the climb due the rope zig-zagging. Many times I see the middle mark 20-30 feet out from me when the leader gets to the anchors. I can still safely lower them with what rope is left because of the stretch in the rope as well as because they are coming straight down rather than zig-zagging.
That said when seeing a middle mark while rope is going out it does serve as a reminder that one should being paying even more attention.
Chainsaw - thanks for the kind words. Sharpies have some affect. How much, especially when compared to other environmental affects such as grit, sunlight, normal usage is open to debate. The point that should really taken is that why do some thing questionable when there are other solutions. For instance, damn near everybody has a rope bag. Why? so we do not put our ropes in the dirt which can then over time cut fibers. Though the rope bag is prevention I think you get idea.
As for the rescue insurance. It boils down to personal responsibility. In Europe where socialized medicine is the norm but if you break your leg skiing. It is not necessarily covered. Why? because not everyone skis. So those who do so must take some responsibility. Interestingly, when buying a lift ticket you can buy it with or without insurance. Given I was living in France for a while, a week later I joined the French Alpine Club which as part of my dues included insurance. Then I started diving - guess what I did the same thing bought a license for diving which also included insurance. All of these activities are optional parts of life. So it you want to do them be responsible and be insured.
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R18
Trad climber
Silverthorne, CO
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May 21, 2009 - 11:08am PT
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Speaking as a climber and volunteer rescuer in CO. We happily accept donations from the people we help but, we don't do it for the money. It is our contribution back to our communities. Unlike the national parks, most of us are not finacially compensated. We raise our own funds, buy our own equipment. The taxpayer is not burdened by our efforts. And, if you ask teams like YOSAR, they will tell you they don't do it for the money, either. What they get paid doesn't even equate to minimum wage when one figures how much time goes into training.
Almost all rescues are accidents. We all make mistakes. Odds are the belayer will never forgive himself and will be paying for the rest of his life for his error. I donate over 1500 hours a year to SAR work. The appreciation of those we help in the mountains and educate via PSAR is payment enough.
R18, a proud member of the MRA
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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Scared Silly already has elucidated the only viable option which, as usual, the Euros have found the true path upon which to trod.
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k-rho
Trad climber
Munich in Germany
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May 21, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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I just never trust myself.
Everything that can happen will happen sonner or later.
That's why I practise routines wherever possible to prevent myself from doing mistakes.
For example I really practise the parter-check (harness, belay-device correct, belay-carabiner locked) every! single time I'm climbing inside or outside.
A lot of people laugh at me, probably especially because I'm German and people think I'm too fussy, I recognized that at the gym.
Please be honest to yourself - are you practising the partner-check? Yes, even in the gym, especially where you do tie in and out all the time.
That'S the same for the rope-end.
I always tie the end of the rope to my rope bag.
If that's not possible due to the terrain, just tie a knot in the rope, always.
This is just because I don't trust myself, everbody does make a mistake from time to time. Just a lot of people are in luck most of the times.
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Daniel Hughes
Trad climber
Bronx, New York
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May 22, 2009 - 10:43am PT
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Just had this discussion with Jay Foley in Taos. Keep it simple and always tie a knot in the end of the rope.
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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May 26, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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I am sorry to hear about this horrible climbing accident that could have been avoided...always tie-in!!
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Toreador
Trad climber
York, UK
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May 28, 2009 - 08:31am PT
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re insurance.
Not sure about the rest of Europe, but in the UK there is no charge for rescue whatever the cause, whether it's ski-ing, climbing, or having a heart attack while hiking.
All rescue teams are voluntary (made up of fellow climbers, mountaineers, etc) and apart from a small State contribution in Scotland, funding is by commercial sponsorshop and public donation.
Helicopter rescue if required comes out of the Air Force training budget (if they weren't rescuing us they'd be rescuing sheep, or inflatable dummies).
So we're firmly at the 'none' end of Dingus's scale - and long may it continue :)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 28, 2009 - 10:17am PT
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"sheep or inflatable dummies"?
Why not both rolled into one?
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