Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
|
so some famous climbers write a magazine article on a rapp bolted route on HD then leave their mess and taxpayers pay to clean it up and there is not a problem?
glad you guys are out there doing what you do but you dont see a problem with this scenario?
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
|
Buju/Roger - will you please answer the questions I posed above? It is the bullet list on the previous page. Please do not misunderstand myself and others - you are not the villain here, quite the contrary. Thank you.
Wildone, can you please answer The Chief's question as to what part you had, if any, in Growing Up?
|
|
wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
|
Wait, I'm "famous" so you should know all about it. It's all in the rags. I don't have time to talk to non-famous climbers. Which is funny because 10000 climbers know your name and about 4 know mine. And they're my friends. And they know I suck at climbing.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
|
Do you guys come to the park to clean up other people's messes?
Ever hear of Facelift? A whole lot of people who post here have picked up a shít-ton of other people's messes.
I would like to see Pete's simple questions answered succinctly.
This debacle is worthy of a separate thread - to say the least.
|
|
wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
|
Oh man! The rock police are on to me! Oh man!
|
|
tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
|
I was resistant to chime in but these crazy complainers have a real point.
The route is old news, and in the grand scheme of things a mess that got cleaned up is not a big deal.
This is not about the climb or the clean up, it's about the mess.
A bunch of folks work a route, publish an article, move on, and leave a mess that the Park Service has to pay to clean up?
One of these climbers, is the "father of clean climbing?"
I can see why people are pissed off.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
|
Oh man! The rock police are on to me! Oh man!
I guess you also could call Yosemite's lead climbing ranger "the rock police", eh?
I sent Jesse M a copy of his year-old post (from a few pages back), and asked him to comment.
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
|
If someone does not answer a direct question doesn't that mean they DID answer the question?
This same issue happened not long ago on Mt. Watkins. I went up there only to discover piles of fixed, rotting ropes, haul bags that had turned to dust in the sun and piles of animal-scavenged food. All clearly (in my opinion so don't rag) the leftovers from people trying to free stuff.
What is more important:
A name in the magazines that will help keep your sponsorship?
Preserving our planet for our children's children?
Apologies to Peter for adding to this thread drift.
|
|
Buju
Big Wall climber
the range of light
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
|
Ben...you better run!
bad boys, bad boys, what cha gonna do?
what 'cha gonna do when they come for you?
Wait, you don't need to run because you are so FAMOUS! As a FAMOUS person, you will be sentanced to a minimum security prison (the bay area) and be forced to ride bikes in your free time.
Pete, here you go:
Questions for Roger:
how much garbage [in pounds] did you remove?/
About 100 pounds, but more was removed by other people (friends of Sean's) before we got there
what did it consist of? Please be specific.
Used propane bottles, a big rubbermaid box, a shredded tarp, a shredded sleeping pad, water bottles, beer cans
did you score any good booty?
A bear can and a camp stove. Others scored ropes.
how many people partook in this exercise?
Our crew consisted of 4 other people. But like I said, friends of Sean's had already done a lot of work up there
//
who were they?//
Members of the NPS wilderness resotration crew.
// how long did it take you? I would like a reasonable estimate in people/hours/days, something that is measurable, please.//
Approxamately 5 hours including hiking time from our base camp at Morraine Dome. IRONICALLY, habout half of that time was after our work day ended, so technically, only half of that time we were on the clock. For the other half we were volunteers.
how did the trash get removed - by helicopter, mule, or the old-fashioned way by schlepping?
On our Backs
IMPORTANT: do you have an estimate - a REASONABLE best-guess estimate - as to the TOTAL number of man-hours required to complete this exercise? This will require some thought on your part, sorry, but inquiring minds wish to know.
4 (people) X 5 (hours) = 20 man/woman hours
what is an average hourly rate paid to each person working on this project?
None of your buisiness
if you used a helicopter, how many flights did it require and for what total duration of time?
No helicopter...that would be ridiculous.
what is a reasonable cost estimate for the use of a helicopter? WERNER - you probably know this answer, do you knott?
Infinity billion dollars
what fines and punishment were issued to Sean and Doug?
None, just as the thousands of people who abuse/leave garbage in the wilderness each year in Yosemite are not fines. I wish all of those people were, but they, in general, are not.
I hope this answers the questions everybody had.
Now lets talk about how awesome Laid to Rest is. (Apparently the people who CLEANED UP THE MESS the mess have gotten over it)
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
|
I dropped Doug a line so he can chime in if he desires.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
|
Sean Jones left us a great quote-
"Climbing is a game....life is a game.....and lucky for us, we're here playing it at all."
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
|
what is an average hourly rate paid to each person working on this project?
None of your buisiness
How is revealing how our tax dollars are spent "none of your business"?
|
|
tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
|
When you camp in the wilderness, you clean up your mess when you leave. That's basic- leave no trace, the park service pushes this concept.
It cost money, say a couple hundred bucks for the park to clean it up. What the wages are, well you know none of those guys are getting rich doing that work, so who knows. Say ten bucks an hour minimum for crew, and a higher wage for the crew leader- say $15. They could all get paid more, but either way, it's not that pricey.
The price isn't the point. We can't leave messes where we climb.
Edit- Buju is right about talking about how awesome this route is. The pictures are sweet, and so is the obscure history.
I'll move my beef to the already controversial Growing up thread.
|
|
JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
|
Thanks Rodger for handling these questions so well. I agree with everyone here who thinks leaving an impact like this is a big deal. However, I think this debate should be less about who is to blame, and more about how we as a climbing community can work together to take care of our collective impacts.
I must say that leaving trash and abandoning our equipment is just one impact we have. Every time you clean a route and remove lichen or plants that has been established for 1000s of years that is a huge impact. Take a good look a the strips of cleaned rock around the climbs we love. I'm not saying we should stop climbing, but just be aware when we point the finger at someone else.
My point is we all have impacts, and we should work hard on trying to minimize them. Whether that means climbing El Cap ground up without using "abandoned" fixed-ropes, or respecting the space of amazing cliff dwellers like peregrine falcons.
Let me clarify one other thing. I issued citations for this incident (I can't divulge who received them). The two individuals felt horrible about this incident, and accepted there fines humbly without protest. I can't say I've ever had such gracious offenders. These guys, like all of us at some point, had a string of unfortunate events, and they didn't prioritize this clean-up. They tried to get others in the community to help out, and eventually that happened...only the community members happened to be wearing a uniform.
Don't point the finger at Ben/Wildone. He is right to say that he left while the project was still in progress.
Hopefully this will help to relax the situation. BTW, Pete, looking forward to bantering with you over beers at the bridge...when are you coming up and are you bringing the goat with you?
Cheers,
Jesse McGahey
Yosemite Climbing Ranger
|
|
Buju
Big Wall climber
the range of light
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
|
Thanks Jesse
Man...I don't know how you do this all of the time. You are a hero!
-Ro(d)ger Putnam
|
|
wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
|
I shouldn't be such a dick. This is actually an issue I care deeply about. I just see the big picture, that we all have impacts, and when these dudes point the finger at me and then go haul ass in their guzzler every weekend to climb classic routes that were accessed by a trail that didn't exist before people climbed there, on a route that was cleaned with gardening tools on rock that had vegetation ripped out at the base and think this is "pure" or something...it just gets me riled up. My girlfriend and I just went two years without a car- just bikes. We eat almost exclusively out of our garden. I pick up all the trash I see whenever I'm in the woods. No-one wants to give the benefit of the doubt, but they all want to get it.
Our actions seem to say, "I am perfect. It's those "other" guys that aren't." Our brains are so funny.
So, Jesse. I'll be available for some big missions real soon. I'm going to work above the arctic circle a month at a time this summer, but then I'll have a month off in between, so if you need my special capacity for suffering on your team, think of something we can do and give me a call. I know you're no lightweight and I'd love to help.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
|
First off, thanks Roger and Jesse for your forthright answers to my queries. I felt quite indignant that this whole episode initially appeared to me to have been swept under the carpet. I now see that the mess has been cleaned up, and evidently with the issuing of appropriate citations justice has been served, and hopefully lessons learned.
'nuff said about the mess.
However I strongly and emphatically disagree with the rap bolting of Half Dome, and will continue to strongly condemn it in the other thread, and offer my support to those willing to properly and cleanly remove the rap-placed bolts.
Jesse, I'm saddened to report that Eva the inflatable sheep has met her demise, firstly from over-enthusiastic wall buggering and ultimately at the teeth of Max the dog. However Wee-Wee the Big Wall Crab and I are looking forward to beers on the bridge with you and the rest of the gang towards the end of May and throughout June. I am always amazed and delighted that we can share beers out in public in Yosemite without catching any flak from the rangers as long as we're not [obviously] intoxicated, I don't suppose you know why this is so?
Cheers and beers,
Pete
|
|
wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
|
Resort-town status as far as the open-container laws go.
|
|
JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
|
Yo Rodg, so funny I can't spell your name without the d, probably because we always enunciate the dg sound. Looks like its about to storm again...I'm thinking that the Cathedral Peak Project is going to start late this summer. When do you think the snow pack will melt out enough to start the work?
On that note let me be the first to predict that Tioga Pass will not open in 2010 until after Memorial Day...which means more crowds in Yosemite Valley...everyone likes the moving parking lot!
|
|
Tork
climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
|
Ro(d)ger, get back to work! More tax dollers being wasted!
Kidding of course
Thanks guys for all the info and hard work!
Now back to a great thread!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!