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WBraun
climber
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Speculation is always part of an analysts and should not be forced to be censored.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Tia doesn't own this site Werner.
She can't "force" censorship on anyone.
She just lost her dad. I think the family and friends have been remarkable in their posting here given the circumstances.
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WBraun
climber
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My post was not aimed at Tia or anyone in particular.
So who is really speculating now ....
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Everybody chill! After a accident of any kind, there is going to be analysis and speculation, and grief and anger and hurt. Everyone has lost someone, and everyone has speculated "What happened?" It is human nature, but more importantly analysis and discussion of the accident helps others to stay safe.
I didn't know Woody, but any discussion of what happened does not make me respect him less. Woody obviously was "The MAN."
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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as the person who tried to perform some analysis, but in a very sensitive way, I will say -
I do not feel censored. I made what I now find to be an error in judgment in my earlier posts, although I attempted to be as sensitive as possible, and I am quite sure that I never disparaged the actions of any individual. The error in judgment I believe I made had to do with the location and timing of my discussions.
After considering my own error in judgment, I decided that removing my posts was the only way I could begin to atone for that error, and that is what I did. I stand by that decision, and I am sincerely sorry for my own original error in judgment.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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the_don:
> If Al had already lowered Woody 35', then did Woody actually fall 65', rather than 100'? Or were they lowering off at a point more than 100' off the ground?
Yes, he fell 65'. I have edited it now. I had 100' in there before, because when I first wrote that, I thought the fall started when the lowering began, and I did not edit it correctly.
> Is it correct that the lead line from Woody to Al was loaded after the fall, although Woody was on the ground?
Yes.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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stay away, Lowest.
you certainly have zilch to offer in a thread about lessons learned by climbers about accidents (and in any other thread it is it debatable at best, but i digress...)
(how's that for censorship?)
i think there is speculation and there is speculation.
not all speculation is equal.
on that note i'll offer some further speculation.
woody had to be untied to relive pressure on al.
therefore it seems that woody was being lowered w/ an auto-locking device of some kind (speculation, not offensive speculation IMO)
perhaps the 2nd rope was pulled up, tied into the anchor on a bite and either clipped through a device attached to the anchor, or maybe that was just the intention.
i am unfamiliar with this exact location and it's terrain, but there are many top-outs in the park (intersection rock for an obvious example) where a belayer using a device attached directly to the anchor might feel entirely comfortable not tying in directly, or even feel inconvenienced unnecessarily by tying in directly. alternatively, al may have intended to tie in on a bite from a comfortable position near a lip or edge, or an otherwise convenient place, some distance forward from where the gear opportunities are, in order to facilitate verbal communication w/ TGT (again, all speculation on my part).
perhaps the same device (or the only device available?) was instead used to lower woody (again, auto-locking devices would be used in this way at the anchor and seems to have been involved between al and woody).
so again, speculation here, but an initial set up w/ one intention that was not addressed by either party when the plan changed could easily have caused (or contributed to) this tragic mishap.
in this scenario, al would have begun to lower woody without weighting the anchor, perhaps from a seated stance of some sort which was initially effective, and then something changed and that belay/lowering position became inadequate (i personally have experienced a dramatic change in force upon me while lowering a relatively small climber, when that climber was lowered over a change in angle, so that the climber went from initially walking backward down a low angle face and then suddenly became a free hanging dead weight no longer in contact with the wall).
Tia-
(deleted)
peace and best wishes to anyone who could use a few extra right now.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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some say laughter is the best medicine, my friend
who says she is gud fer nothin?
=)
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"Captain Sullenberger, successfully put (bird hit) flight 1549 into the Hudson River thus saving 150 lives as well as countless on-the-ground lives if the plane had crashed in populated NYC. When questioned about how he managed such quick thinking and skill, he replied that he attributed his success to analyzing many episodes which preceded his events concerning flight 1549.
Sullenberger sits on (and may even head up) the board which analyzes and dissects every aircraft accident which occurs in the US. He has stated, in a very public way, that his successful actions were as a result of all this indirect experience he gleaned via sitting on the board and analyzing (in excruciating detail) all previous episodes wherein he participated. Without that (on paper) experience, he does not believe he could have made the decisions he did."
You can laugh at this if you like, but it's the reason why the American Alpine Club and the Alpine Club of Canada publish ANAM every year.
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couchmaster
climber
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I was not going to post here but LEBs post hit me. First) Tia, thanks for the great words. I only know a few things and those not very well. No one who knew Woody will ever forget him. He was memorable and stood out on this site for his honesty. He didn't hide behind a screen name and he told people the truth....much to their chargrin, surprise or anger:-)
I wish I'd got off my ass and just headed down and climbed with the Woodster. My first trip to JT I was doing some of his routes and those memories are yet with me. He was a character, and I loved him just on his words...the world is missing a good one there. Those of you who had time with him were truly blessed, and I'm sure that makes his passing even more of a nightmare. My sorrow for your loss is deep and heartfelt. Thanks to all for the accident analysis.
_
to the meat and potatoes here:
LEB said:) "Karen,
They don't ever "pass" from your heart or your soul. April 2, 2009 marked 23 years since I found myself in a similar situation to where you are now. You simply build another life around it. "
OMG! LEB, what would be the odds, was this a climbing accident at Smith? I was first responder on an near identical accident and it must have been somewhere near or on this date. Climbed around and up and lowered them off but it was too late. When I read what happened here, it is eerily similar, dead on the money damn near the same exact thing happened if I understand correctly. Same tie in issue, lowering a person and the belayer slides off the ledge. They were experienced too, it happened on the 5.10a route called Trezlar. What would be the odds. This what you are refering to?
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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The Lesson : Always tie in directly to the anchor WITH the climbing rope that is tied into your harness. This applies to the leader as well as the follower.
I think Russ has it pretty right on with his operating procedure.
Even on walls I'll tie into the anchor with the rope even though I may be attached with my jugs and a daisies and only there momentarily.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Good lord. I have no idea how this went from an explanation of an accident to the salinity of the Hudson Frickin' River.
Thank you for the details. I know a lot of people think it unnecessary, but I find the details of the accident very informative.
My only question is, and feel free to ignore me, is why was a second rope used at all? if the first follower was being lowered, why wouldnt they just get lowered and untie, and a new person tied in?
As for the Hudson River ESTUARY, it is full on salty up to West Point, Brackish to POUGHKEEPSIE (about an hour north - the Gunks), and a little salty all the way to the TROY FUKING DAM at Albany. It is TIDAL the whole way as well. (Can you tell that used to be my job?!)
PS- RIP Woody, and best wishes to all those involved. Speedy recovery to Al and Locker, and anyone and everyone else, both physically and mentally.
Accidents suck.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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The problem with an open forum like this is that there is no specific place set aside for an analysis, so we get testimonials mixed in with rants mixed in with technical breakdowns mixed in with (fill in the blank).
JL
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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-a lot of totally off-topic bullshít...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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The Airplane thing was funny but I think this thread is too serious for that to become an extended detour. Let's move anymore BS about the Hudson somewhere else
my 1 cent
Karl
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Gene
climber
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Karl,
I take jstan’s post to mean that what needs to be gleaned and learned from Woody’s accident is already out there. It even now has its own name – the Woody Check. If I may be presumptuous, jstan is telling us that the minutiae doesn’t matter. Airplanes shouldn’t hit birds and partners need to check and double check each other. The mechanics of the accident, the salinity of the Hudson, etc. are secondary to the point – watch out for yourself and for your partner, ie avoid flying into a flock.
If that was not jstan's intent, I apologize.
gm
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Not criticizing any post in particular, just don't think further debate on the salinity of the Hudson should crowd the thread. The original point may have been well stated.
Peace
Karl
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I would also like to repeat my condolences for all involved.
Thank you Wendell and Woody for letting us know what happened.
There have been threads here where people talk about "your closest call". Everyone makes mistakes.
I think the main reason people wanted the details is so they can make sense of (simply understand) what happened.
Complancency kills is the lesson, thank you Wendell for reminding us. I can not be stated enough.
Knowing the details makes the lesson easier to understand and also provides an image of a situation that might make people stop and think when they are in a similar situation and are reminded to not be complacent. It may be painful to share, but it does help.
Locker I too lost one of my closest friends and partly blamed myself for not doing everything I could to prevent it. I was tore up and not myself for a year because of it. I came to grips with it not by not blaming myself (I know that even though I did not cause it, I could have done things to prevent it) but by forgiving myself. How could I have known what was going to happen? You choose your actions based on the knowledge available to you at the time.
Trauma can effect your memory. Al might never remember everything and that may be a good thing.
For those close to Al please take good care of him and keep an eye on him. It seems to me his situation could be very difficult. He could have or develop survivor's guilt. He may also blame himself (totally unwarranted of course). Plus the physical and psycological damage of the trauma.
My best wishes to all.
Edited to add: Wendell take care of yourself (and friends take care of Wendell). It can be easy to discount the impact of what you had to deal with when you are worried about your friends.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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It's human to want to "figure things out", especially when there's pain involved.
However, my perspectives on past accidents, both those of others and those I've been involved in myself to some degree - they've changed, and they keep changing as I mature, move through my life, and learn new things.
So, whatever you "figure out" here - it's probably going to change, which begs the question of whether you ever actually figured anything out.
So, I agree with the OP. The facts are on the table. I believe they are all you need.
Also - thanks everyone for putting this stuff out there - locker, TGT, friends, the family. You didn't have to. I appreciate this story.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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Tia and Woody Jr:
My condolences go out to you. It is a terrible thing to have lost your father this way. I'm sure it is even worse to be subjected to some of the posts in this and other threads on this forum. My apologies to you. I'm sure that there isn't a single person here who wishes to make things harder for you than they already are. My best wishes to you as you struggle to find peace in the wake of all that has happened.
For the rest of us the lesson is not in the details. Enough of those have been posted and analyzed. The lesson is simple and is something we all learned in the beginning of our journey in this sport:
"Check yourself, check your partner, and then check again. Never assume anything."
That is all that here.
Peace to all,
Scott
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