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Bad Climber
climber
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So much of the "God" thing comes down to a very lame argument: You can't prove that God doesn't exist. Ergo, He (not She, It--SH*&^T--or Transgendered One) exists! This disproving of the negative quickly shows its, er, shall we say, Emperor's clothes, when we use Russell's orbiting tea pot argument: You can't disprove there isn't a giant invisible tea pot orbiting the sun, therefore it must exist. I like the nano-gnomes goin' tribal, too.
Of course, our fertile imaginations (key term, that), have led to all kinds of fanciful (aye, another key term, that) inventions (and another one). May it always be so! But we (religious humans) spend enormous amounts of time, energy, and money reinforcing these stories, our lives vested, invested and founded upon upon them, that we CANNOT give them up. Because they (the stories) have become our lives, to give them up is to abandon who we are--whether it makes sense or is ultimately real or not.
I certainly understand this impulse. I once clung to climbing as a central signifier of my existence, even if I never got very good at it. To move beyond this has been a long, difficult process. And here I am, climbing little these days but slagging on Taco. So it goes.
We atheists are usually a marginalized, furtive lot. So many do not "believe" but dare not voice their true beliefs for fear of being ostracized--or is ostrich-sized? Hmmmm, have to work on that one. I live in a pretty conservative, Bible-thumped part of the world, and I make a point of NOT mentioning my stance on these issues. I see no point in creating friction and distrust, alienating neighbors. Whatever gets you through the night, eh?
I'll take the wonder of mystery, a fine pale ale, a hike in the desert at night, my dog's big grin and the owl hooting at the moon. What the hell else do we need, really? Dudes and chicks, really?!
Carry on.
Bad Climber
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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In the end, suffice it to say we will all know.
I'm not sure of the truth of this, but it seems to me a simple yet sad experiment to do, that is measureable and repeatable over and over again. Measure the mass of the human moments before on their death bed, and then again immediatley after the moment the vital signs and brainwaves go flat.
"21 GRAMS pertains to the cultural belief that when a human being dies, they weigh exactly 21 grams less which is attributed to the soul leaving the body."
Does our soul really have the mass of 21 grams?
Movie: 21 Grams
http://www.amazon.com/21-Grams-Sean-Penn/dp/B0001CNRRU/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1236657089&sr=8-1
If something like this does happen, then you would have to ask whether atheist or not, what is this 21 grams of mass, and where does it go?
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WBraun
climber
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Ever see the show "Lie to me"
That's how most of these posts in this type of thread read.
You can really see the hidden real intent here.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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”So we are to assume there is a God just because we somehow figure that he doesn't want to prove himself to us?”
Should we assume there is NOT a God because He does not “prove Himself” on our terms? Christ performed miracles to His OWN generation and they did not believe. He gave prophesies that were fulfilled in His own generation yet His generation rejected him.
Are we so much more enlightened and objective that we would accept more signs and “proofs” of God's existence?
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GDavis
Trad climber
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I would venture a guess that you're more likely to be ostracized in the climbing community for being a christian than being an Atheist.
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apogee
climber
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Mar 10, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
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Mar 10, 2009 - 12:09am PT
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"BILLY GRAHAM: Cults can’t take God’s place
DEAR BILLY GRAHAM: Why do people get involved in cults? My cousin has gotten involved in one, and no matter what we say to him, he refuses to listen. He says we are the ones who are in the dark, and he alone in our family has found the truth. — S. McM.
DEAR S. McM: One characteristic of cults is that they strongly believe they alone are right in their beliefs and everyone else is wrong..."
Hehehehehehehehe
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 10, 2009 - 12:32am PT
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Not sure how many of you on ST would read this book, but it did a great deal for me after my father-in-law died last April. It does help to answer the questions we are all pondering in this thread.
It is a very incredible story and very inspirational. I would say that Don Piper knows. He was dead for 90 minutes, and he came back. He tells his whole story regarding the entire experience. What happened to him in Heaven is absolutely amazing. He had a very difficult time recovering from the accident afterwards. He really wanted to return back to Heaven.
90 Minutes in Heaven: A true Story of Death and Life
by Don Piper with Cecil Murphy
http://www.amazon.com/SELECTIONS-Minutes-Heaven-Inspiring-beyond/dp/0800719093/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236658335&sr=8-1
"90 Minutes in Heaven is the runaway bestseller about one man's experience with death and life. As Baptist minister Don Piper drove home from a conference, his car collided with a semi-truck that had crossed into his lane. Piper was pronounced dead at the scene. For the next 90 minutes, he experienced the glories of heaven, where he was greeted by those who had influenced him spiritually, and he experienced true peace. Back on earth, a passing minister who had also been at the conference felt led to pray for the accident victim even though he was told Piper was dead. Miraculously, Piper came back to life. For years Don Piper kept his heavenly experience to himself. Finally, friends and family convinced him to share his remarkable story. An inspiring and encouraging account, 90 Minutes in Heaven continues to touch and comfort millions of people around the world as it offers a glimpse of inexpressible heavenly bliss. This makes perfect gift of hope for those struggling to understand a tragedy or loss of a loved one."
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Bad Climber
climber
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Mar 10, 2009 - 09:05am PT
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Hey, Klimmer: Sorry to burst your bubble, but the dude wasn't dead. Death, by definition, is a permanent state. The guy obviously went through some intense experience, but it wasn't death.
BaD CLiMber
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 10, 2009 - 09:41am PT
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I'm just gonna guess here, but I'm thinking you haven't read the book, am I right?
The paramedics on the scene took all his vitals. He wasn't breathing and his heart wasn't beating. Don't know about the brainwaves, but we all know what happens to the brain in death if it doesn't receive oxygen for a certain amount of minutes.
Read the book before you spout-off is all I'm saying.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Mar 10, 2009 - 09:47am PT
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TT
:>)
Cheers,
DD
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2009 - 10:10am PT
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"Should we assume there is NOT a God because He does not “prove Himself” on our terms? Christ performed miracles to His OWN generation and they did not believe. He gave prophesies that were fulfilled in His own generation yet His generation rejected him.
Are we so much more enlightened and objective that we would accept more signs and “proofs” of God's existence? "
So we know he performed "miracles" thanks to a 2000 year old book written over a generation after Jesus' death. (If he ever actually existed, which is not certain.) And, I presume, that this religious text somehow trumps other religious texts discussing miracles of their prophets.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Mar 10, 2009 - 10:23am PT
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Klimmer: I don't need to read a pastor's book to understand the meaning of the word dead. Dead is dead. You don't come back. Period. That's what the word means. You know, rot, worms, maggots, the works. What so hard about the concept? Whatever that guy went through, regardless of paramedics, etc., he wasn't dead because he didn't stay that way. He was in some state mid-way between the two conditions, alive and dead, but he wasn't on the far side of that continuum.
Bad Climber
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Mar 10, 2009 - 10:46am PT
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Mighty Hiker,
> Is it an oxymoron to say that you believe you're an atheist?
The argument I tried to make, admittedly not especially well as I sat in one of my current client’s endless cubicles forever looking over my shoulder to see if I’d get busted for not focusing solely on my notes about the glorious history of this firm’s toilet paper and tampons (I sh!t thee not)
(damned digressions) So anyway, the argument I was trying to make was that atheism _is_ a form of faith. Perhaps not the right form of faith, of course -- but truly a leap of faith nonetheless.
I respect anyone who thinks hard then takes the responsibility and takes that leap. I also think that the notion that only those whose leap is theism have actually made a truly sincere leap is, well, undercooked. I believe they are failing to understand the true nature of the word “faith.”
Faith is, by definition, a guess. Granted the most profound guess any of us will ever make. I don’t use the word ‘guess’ to demean faith. I use the word to better define the true nature of faith. What faith is.
~~~
There is no such thing as “The Church Of Gravity” (at least here on the surface of this planet). If I take this cup of coffee now in my hand and turn it upside down, it’s contents will surely hit the floor. I’ve yet to meet anyone (not on Haldol) who would suspect otherwise.
I wrote my post carefully to respect all forms of faith – because I do respect all forms of faith. As I respect yours. I was simply asking the theist majority to offer my tribe the same respect. I don’t ask you to agree with me -- I am not an evangelical atheist. Quite the opposite. My beliefs are my personal quiet best guess. I wouldn’t dare challenge anyone else’s best guess.
I’d simply like others to give me and mine a little respect, and allow us our right to make our best guess – and then take the responsibility to live with the results of it.
~~~
Sometimes I hope that there might be kinda of a card table off in a far corner of heaven; like the card table I used to have to sit at big holidays in my childhood, like Thanksgiving and Christmas – as the few seats at the kitchen table were reserved for my endless elders. And rightly so. (think _big_ irish catholic clan - i have over 100 first cousins. sheesh!)
Maybe there is such a card table in a distant corner of heaven. And maybe an omnsicent and compassionate God might take pity on me and say “well, you’re a dope and got it wrong. But you did try. So off to the card table with you…”
One of the things that often strikes me about the theists so absolutely certain about their guess is that they seem to my eye to fail to even try to comprehend how a truly omniscient, benevolent, and compassionate God might act. In the Judeo-Christian tradition it is said that we bipeds were created in God’s image. I often see evidence of my fellow bipeds doing the exact opposite – creating a God in their image. A god who is angry and pissed at anyone who has pissed these specific bipeds off. A God who wants justice and revenge. The OT certainly feeds this mindset. Jesus (other than in Paul’s personal interpretation) never did this. I do have this ongoing big problem with the epistles of Paul.
I believe that if there is a God, a truly and perfectly omniscient and compassionate God – that He (or She or They) won’t be even remotely so small as bipeds like me. God as I can even begin to comprehend, surely wouldn’t be so trivial as the lot of us. Imagine complete and omniscient compassion. Well, try -- who among us truly could. I believe that such a God would not create a hell for anyone.
For that is not true and complete compassion. Though I can imagine such a God having a rickety card table off in a corner for the broken likes of me.
I suspect that hell is being at that card table and forever remembering and trying to comes to grips with when we acted like turds when we surely could have done better.
fwiw…
^,,^
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Mar 10, 2009 - 11:06am PT
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WBraun,
> The atheist has no knowledge .....
nor does the theist -- at least on this profound front.
that's why they call it 'faith' -- no, great one.
^,,^
[and BTW, it was Augustine of Hippo -- not Thomas Aquinas -- who wrote “Lord, give me chastity, but not just yet.” in his mighty "Confessions". sheesh, $30k wasted -- i am _such_ a moron. though it was Thomas Aquinas who wrote that "faith is that we cannot know, cannot touch" in "Summa Theologica" -- so i was half right (better than average for me). though hardly worth even $15k.]
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Mar 10, 2009 - 11:35am PT
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Largo,
> These arguments and conversations go on and on and so far as
> I can tell, have been circling around humanity since the first
> cavemen squatted around the first campfire. The main problem
> is that folks are using the wrong instrument - the analytical > mind.
John,
Your post stuck me most of all. I much agree.
I believe it is the mystics, in all of the many traditions, who are on the right track. I believe this is a realm where one simply can’t ‘figure it out’ analytically. Rather one just senses it, on a deep and immediate level way beyond words.
Which is why much of what I read are the mystics. I have at present at my bedside in this cheesy hotel room Juan de Yepes Alvarez (‘Saint John of the Cross’)’s commentaries on his lovely (even in translation) “Dark Night of the Soul.” That and Blake’s “The Everlasting Gospel”
In my fast approaching dotage I now prefer to solo long trivial climbs out in the middle of nowhere. Because sometimes I pause and just have this unexpected sense that I almost ‘get’ what the mystics are trying to reduce to mere words.
Well, almost.
^,,^
[I’m also fascinated by (and reading about) Neanderthal burial sites. I’ve been reading that they find all manner of flower pollen in many of these burials. So why did they take the time to bury their dead peers – and why with so many flowers? Evidence, I believe, that your reference to ‘the first cavemen squatted around the first campfire’ is quite on target.]
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Mar 10, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
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The other big question in this debate is whether death is final or not. Here's one view:
A couple made a deal that whoever died first would come back and inform the surviving partner other about the afterlife. Their biggest fear was that there was no afterlife. After a long life, the husband was the first to go, and true to his word he made contact with his wife.
"Mary. Mary. Are you there?"
"Is that you, Fred?"
"Yes. I'm reaching out to you like we agreed."
"What's it like?"
"Well, I get up in the morning, I have sex, I have breakfast, then off to the golf course, I have sex, I bathe in the sun, and then I have sex, I have lunch, another romp around the golf course, then sex pretty much all afternoon. After supper golf course again. Then have sex until late at night. The next day it starts all over again."
"Oh, Fred you surely must be in heaven."
"No, I've come back as a rabbit."
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Bad Climber
climber
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Mar 10, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
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Sorry, gotta call hogwash on defining atheism as "faith." It is the antithesis of faith, which, in this context, is the belief in the absence of proof, of evidence, even, at times, belief inspite of proof to the contrary. For SOME reason this is supposed to be a really great and virtuous thing. I don't get that.
Honest atheists (I include myself here) should be willing to go along with the herd (baaaa) if sufficient, credible evidence existed for a personal God, which, unless I'm mistaken, is the point of this pointless debate. God as mere metaphor for existence doesn't cut is here.
I like the way Carl Sagen put it: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
I understand the desire to have an imaginary friend to help us feel better about suffering and the fact that we die. I get that. But we recognize the fallacy of childhood imaginary friends and refuse to do the same when the concept is applied to adults? Indoctrination is a powerful thing.
I can hear the theists shrieking: It is YOU who are indoctrinated! Sorry again. My parents tried, without too much enthusasim, to make the religious thing stick, but experience, reading about religion, science and the world has led me to my current understanding--subject to revision, of course!
Abbey (the Cactus Ed variety) said, roughly: There is more wonder in a microscope and a telescope than in truckloads of all the mystical texts and magic mushrooms combined.
Last point, then I GOTTA get to work: Think of these tragic stories we've all heard about fires, tornadoes, whatever, and the TV interviews with survivors that follow. So often we hear things like: "God was looking out for us!" or "God answered our prayers!"---all the while seeming to ignore the hard, desperate truth of the dead and maimed all around them who were surely just as devout and faithul and good people but whom this "just" and "loving" God decided to annihilate.
The ONLY thing that makes any sense, that is consistent with any kind of objective observation of the evidence is that there is NO God. Personally, I find this hugely liberating. It leaves me free to think more easily about the here and now. My "soul" is not everlasting. It's about who I am NOW, and I've only got this one shot at life. Better not waste it!
Bacher said that death is a gift. He got that right. Painful, but true.
Bad Climber
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 10, 2009 - 12:59pm PT
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BC,
I would think the medical world would disagree with you. You have heard of clinically dead have you not?
When all vital signs are flat-lined (including brainwaves?), you are clinically dead. Without CPR or other emergency help the body will slowly go cold and the muscle mass will stiffen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death
Now we could talk about the miracles of Lazarus and Jesus waking from the dead after 3 days, but we'll leave that for another day.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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Very nice Pip and John, IMO, is on target with the cavemen.
As an aside archeologists found a neanderthal burial site containing a Down's syndrome sufferer who had reached about thirty years of age. And since the Neanderthal tackled very large prey using only pointed sticks, archeologists find few Neanderthal who have not suffered broken bones. The injured were routinely nursed back to health.
I would guess immediately as fire began to be employed it became the environment wherein people gathered to construct stories and experiences that allowed them to "understand" some of the things that beset them. The first organized religion had to have been born there. As for how long these oral histories can last, I have read of a long lost cave in the UK everyone in the region had heard of as having an inscription just touched by the sun at an equinox. When the cave was ultimately found and the sidereal calculations performed, investigators say the inscription was made 5000 years ago.
The christian story - is a baby.
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