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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:33pm PT
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Rox,
maybe you are not considering the energy left in the would be rescuers.
at that altitude, when did they last sleep, eat, drink...
were they themselves freezing their a$$ off, were they afraid for their own lives due to the conditions and their own physical condition?
as sad as it is, there is only one person to blame for his death and that is him. i am assuming that nobody forced him to go climbing.
there is a real problem with climbers when they do not take and or assign personal responsibility.
if i died on el cap in a storm is it yosar's fault?
peeps need to take responsibility for themselves.
as sad as the video is, it does not tell the whole picture, which started when the victim had the urge to start climbing in the first place and continues as a learning process. however, that process MUST maintain personal responsibility and not reliance on others for personal safety.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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RJ, doesn't sound like you've ever been to 20,000 feet. It isn't all that high by Himalayan standards. But it sure is when you aren't acclimatized and have already spent a night out -- and a heck of a lot more than the comfort of you armchair in Idaho. They managed to get him up over snow-covered scree for three hundred feet and still had a thousand feet to go, late in the day. Spending a second night out near the summit would likely be exceedingly dangerous for the rescuers, violating the first rule of rescue. A person with HAPE/HACE that has already been that high for three days isn't going to make it. TLC is a nice concept for bleeding hearts but doesn't always apply in the real, very harsh world of high mountains.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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One of the Argentinean guys at my work who also happen to climb just watched the film and said that one guy is saying:
Get up you shi*, you as*
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ec
climber
ca
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
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'Too many people standing around talking with thumbs up asses...
There were enough guys there to carry/assist this guy, but no one takes the initiative to do so...The guy was obviously wasted...instead they drag him by the collar and haul him like freight.
Wrong!
 ec
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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And that's a trufitude.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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so whose fault is it that he died?
Should the rescuers be sued for not saving him?
my answers are it is the victims fault he died as cold and heartless as that sounds.
and no, i dont think the rescuers should be sued.
would i be embarrassed if i were a rescuer in that video? probably, but i am here at sea level in a warm room...
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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Anastasia,
re:
> There is "legal protection in the U.S." it's called the
> Good Samaritan Law. Though please note that it only
> applies to people who have basic training with a
> "CPR/Fist Aid certification" etc."
fwiw, my understanding is the exact opposite -- that the Good Samaritan Law applies to those _without_ any notable EMS or med training. i once held an EMT/I cert and was happy to see it lapse, just so i was free to simply do my best if need be without worrying about loosing my house.
for example, i was for years a ‘med’ ranger at b’man in it's first decade or so –- well, until i got sick of the sheer number of suburban twerps who came looking for a show (rather than ready to make something worthwhile happen), dopes who decided that the playa was a better place than their suburban cul de sac to try some new arcane dhope dope (then wash it down with like 8 or 10 beers). arghhh.
at about the same time, some weasels suddenly appeared out of absolutely nowhere (with never a minute in the dirt i knew) within the rangers own ranks and almost immediately gave themselves like flag officer ranks (ranks? in the rangers? say wha?) these self important (and self appointed) clowns soon came up with a scheme to pay themselves rather handsomely for their 'genious!' this quick gave mr the exit visa i was searching for. i took it and haven’t been back since ’01.
so what does this have to do with anything? um, i forget. i kinda think it started out as an example of moments when i wondered about the Good Samaritan laws. i think. arghhh.
~~~
as I do still volunteer for vertical SAR endeavors whenever i am actually somewhere long enough to have, like, a local mailing address (which, if my evil plans actually work, is rather rarely). i have looked into this -- for if my read is wrong i could loose my house. (though i rather hope that when standing over a broken person, i won’t waste time debating this. but how small and evil am i? hmmm, i’d rather not find out).
i read your ref at wikipedia. one phrase stuck in my pointy head:
> The details of good Samaritan laws/acts in various
> jurisdictions vary”
this is sadly true, or so i am told by pals who know more of this stuff than i. and it may some day trip me up.
but in general, given my many inguires on the topic to actual smart people, it is only people with significant ems or med training who are held to a higher standard than the Good Samaritan laws. regular joe sixpack’s like me (now that my cert is long expired) are free to just do the best we can dream up in those moments none of us want to witness.
fortunately, they didn’t entirely lobotomize me when that emt cert lapsed -- i do still remember a couple of good tricks (as always, taught to me by far bigger kids)
fwiw…
^,,^
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
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Feb 19, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Brian in SLC,
a typically well informed and well focused post (see above).
i'm really jazzed to see you here (though i recognize the reverse is not necessarily true).
^,,^
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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No rockjox, the Marines would have died. You really haven't spent time in the mountains.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Feb 19, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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Yeah, well, Superman could have saved him. Fly in, warm him up with some laser vision, and then whisk him away to safety.
None of those guys were Superman, apparently.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
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Feb 19, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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ec,
i read your ref.
still can’t quite see how the famous mickey D’s HOT coffee story ended up as a test of the Good Samaritan laws. in what way is someone who serves up a cup of joe (however scalding) representative of a joe sixpack suddenly thrust into the role of being an ad hoc first responder?
did the case focus on how the elite staff, just there, dealt with the woman’s injuries once the HOT coffee was dumped -- or simply the fact it was they who served it up?
the former i would (almost) understand -– while the latter seems to have nothing to do with these laws as i understand their intent (those last 4 words are rather important, here).
me, I’m hoping that when i eventually have that monster MI, that i am not at a mickey D’s (hell, if i am there, i likely deserve it). not the kinda place I suspect that someone who could actually be of help me might often be.
OTOH, whenever they ask me how i want my coffee i always say “Hot Hot Hot –- Absolutely Scalding, Baby!) –- for I need a new car and my mortgage is killing me.
well, as Blake once wrote, “Hope alone makes the heart beat.”
in all your ref was yet another interesting read/distraction from this lame day with this lame client. much appreciated for that. i agree with pretty much all of your insights in this thread.
^,,^
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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According to the article linked earlier in this thread: 17 rescuers found the 4 victims at 2pm and, after tea and warming, had them moving towards the summit by 4pm. The three ambulatory clients were each escorted by about 4 people. By the time that video was made, the remaining rescuers that a few are condemning so harshly had already spent 7 hours in bad weather getting the guide 600 feet up the mountain with 600 to go to the summit. Sounds like a pretty strong effort in a bad situation but the armchair posers here would surely have done better, not.
http://tinyurl.com/cqvbyr
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darod
Big Wall climber
South Side Billburg
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Feb 19, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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RJ, you have no clue...it's amusing...
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 19, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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The McD coffee thing is too often misrepresented, misquoted, misused, etc... The lady only won the case because the defendants admitted that it was cheaper to pay people if they got burned than to lose customers because of cold coffee. They apparently showed a total disregard for the suffering caused and the jury was simply pissed off about it. The plantif also only sued for expenses, as I recall, and the jury decided on the bigger award.
But anyhow, it is impossible to know the mental state of the rescuers in that video. They all could have been demented and nearly dead resulting in their lack of enthusiasm. Who are we to judge? I have not been above 15,000 feet.
Maybe they won't record it the next time. That's about all that will change.
Dave
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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rokjox ..
.. i can tell that the video has riled you up .. and i think that your emotional response is clouding your judgement ..
.. those guys had been already involved in the rescue for over 24 hrs ..
7 hours spent moving the guide about half way to the summit from where they found him .. -- and they (and the other rescuers) had succesfully rescued 3 other people .. they did pretty well ..
.. i think that the video shows the last few minutes of what was a LONG ordeal .. and its not fair to judge their motivation or effort by those last few minutes ..
.. i think you might feel otherwise if you watched 7 hours of them moving the guide up the face through bad rock, and what not.
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reddirt
climber
Elevation 285 ft
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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they are definitely contacting potential witnesses far & wide.
I'm so glad that I can get off on "just" the Sierras & the Tetons & that I'm so not a gunner.
peace be w/ the Italian's fam & everyone who seeks the high places.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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"That guy did more in 10 meters than the other 6 did in the whole flick."
I tend to agree with you. I agree with Werner, too.
However, in the days prior, it appears from the stories that he was most responsible for the events that lead to his own death. He made a ton of mistakes and was breaking the law to boot. I'm leaning toward that as my final take on this.
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SammyLee2
Trad climber
Memphis, TN
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Feb 19, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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You know, I'm with Rokjax on this one.
I am the least of the least on this list. Barely climb 5.9 on a warm day, on a route I know. But I have risked my life to save another. And I'll be goddamned if I wouldn't have tried harder. And if I didn't or wouldn't, then may god damn me. (possible)
If I am walking around, talking, and carrying a pack, there are things I could have done. Die with the son of a bitch and not be filmed walking and talking and using the radio. Be easier. I don't love life that much.
I know you hard guys at altitude see things I don't. I see and feel things at ground level that you may have not seen. A test is a test. Those guys, and he had four hours to die. (as I have read)
At least, I would have whispered in his ear, "Dude, you're gonna die here. Make peace with that. I am saving my ass. Goodbye."
What the hell happened after the 3 minutes? No film of that?
Do I know what I would have done there? Not a chance. But if I couldn't have done better than that, let my ass die. I would not want to live.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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two points come to mind:
1. i’m surprised that no one else commented on the fact that this guy was a guide. now once you’re down and need help, that doesn’t matter – he deserves the best people at hand can do. but one of the few things i would be interested in hearing, when and if more and reliable detail is available – is what exactly got this group of five (4 clients, 1 guide) stranded up there in the first place?
if it proves to be a rockfall or an avi where little expected, fine. such sh!t happens to the best of guides. but if, otoh, it turns out this guide didn’t respond quickly to the first signs of decaying weather, or he let them plod onwards too slow and too late in the day, that would be different. if that proves the case, the fate of the 4 clients who paid and trusted their lives with him is in his hands. one of those clients died, the other 3 surely had a very very scary, cold, and shitty day.
i don’t know which it will be – and speculation in the interim is pointless. and a whole lot of speculation and armchair quarterbacking is simply masturbatory. naah, not interested. we’ll know what facts can be known in time.
2. ok, this might strike you as an odd one, but i found some peace of mind after viewing that nightmaris video in considering how he died. sure, dying sucks -- and i have made many many heartfelt efforts to avoid it. but in the end it will be part of all of our lives.
this guy froze to death. and having stupidly gotten my own self way too close to that, i can tell you this: given some of the grueling alternatives it ain’t in the end such a bad end (again, relative to the alternatives). for you get all numb and sleepy. you don’t feel pain or horror at the situation, you quick decay to the point where all you want is ‘nappy time.’ and once you allow yourself that nap, it quick becomes forever.
relative to, like burning to death, or being all crumpled and broken at the base of some cliff howling and watching your own marrow drip out (or whatever, you can surely come up with more) -- this is surely not the worst way to exit. when i gotta go, i’d rather this than all manner of nightmares i have witnessed.
i don’t mean to be morbid here. but it helped me deal with the nightmare of that video. perhaps it will help some of you who are haunted by it for sincere and appropriate reasons. perhaps not.
~~~
finally, does anyone here truly believe that these guys – who volunteered to charge up to the summit late in the day and into a storm, into what they almost certainly knew would be brutal. then climbed hard for at least 20 hours, then saved 3 souls who wouldn’t have otherwise been saved in one piece. then still kept at it for hours looking for those they hadn’t yet found…
that people willing to volunteer for all of that suddenly up and became heartless morons when they found this wounded guide? really. take a moment and think about this.
to my eye (and i’ve been there, on that summit, moron that i am) i simply don’t buy that. and i don’t believe that i can watch 3 minutes of poor video and even worse audio in some teeny 2inch x 2inch screen – in a language foreign to me, and dare sit back and call anyone a jerk.
it just ain’t like that, in those conditions, up that high. that little i do know for sure.
that’s the last i have to say about it.
find your own peace and wait for more and actually reliable info to come.
or so says i
^,,^
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