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GDavis
Trad climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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GDavis, Yo havin' too much fun at work. Settle down Dude. : DD
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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I have at least some of the matted prints Lynne, wish I had the whole thing, an interesting snapshot of what I was thinking 40 years ago, in some way i think the same, and some ways it's different, now...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:33am PT
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Isn't it the archangel Michael who's supposed to wield the fiery sword? Must go back and read some more Milton.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:05am PT
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Jesus is always coming - he's just never arriving.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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When he does it will be with a bang. No one will miss it, no one.
EDIT: So Jaybro can you synthesize it for me or not ....or take some digitals and email. But your life is so full maybe just whenever. No worries, just curious as always about what people think.
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:24am PT
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30 minutes (okay, 3 minutes) of "I'm coming, I'm coming!" creates a pleasant anticipation, and it may get me to delay my own satisfaction for a few minutes (okay, seconds), but I have to draw the line at 2000+ years of delayed ejaculation or resurrection! Whydontcha COME already?!?!?!
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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I'd love to do it, Lynne, but for various reasons, it's going to be a while until I can record the source material. Possibly before my spring break in April, when maybe we can baby sit for the family Gordon. That passage has given me a lot to think about at various times in the last four decades.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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I think you miss the point, which is he's never going to arrive...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:51am PT
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He will arrive. No doubts.
Edit: Jaybro, sounds grate. Wonder if they think we are responsible enough....I have credentials And transformers. :D
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:58am PT
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Not coming from an institutionalized religious background, I studied the bible out of sheer curiosity. My conclusions are my own and the meanings I assume relate only to my experiences in life. I found many contradictions and still do. It seems to me that most of the new testament ideas are not from Jesus but from this guy Paul, who wasn't even an apostle. Jesus could have written down all kind of cool stuff, but he didn't. Same with the Buddha dude. The important stuff dealing with the nature of our relation with the cosmos is too readily overlooked in favor of some emotional desire to be "saved". Only 144,000 out of the billions of souls who have lived and died meaningful lives? It seems that God must be awfully wasteful, vindictive and cruel. That's not the god Jesus tried to unveil. What we have is a religion about Jesus and his followers not the true religion of Jesus. Just some thoughts that probably only mean something to me.
Live Upfull.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:04am PT
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Not buying into the 144,000 ever, Wayno. We're talkin' God here. He is way beyond the people that contrive to put him into labeled cubbie holes that fit their finite minds, that make them feel comfortable and all knowing. No way Dude. God fits no little, people made boxes. God is.....look around. He is unlabeled. IMHO lynnie
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:15am PT
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Don't get me wrong, Lynne. I was merely pointing out some inconsistencies that I found. I pretty much see it as you have so eloquently stated.I never bought into anything with a number in it.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:50am PT
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”Not buying into the 144,000 ever, Wayno. We're talkin' God here. He is way beyond the people that contrive to put him into labeled cubbie holes that fit their finite minds, that make them feel comfortable and all knowing. No way Dude. God fits no little, people made boxes. God is.....look around. He is unlabeled. IMHO lynnie”
The notion of only one hundred, forty-four thousand being saved is another ridiculous, uninspired doctrine. It’s hard to comprehend that it could have been formulated, let alone believed by any spiritual thinking people. Should we imagine that the Eternal Father of all mankind would condemn all of his limitless children but a mere 144,000?? If you look at Revelations 7:4 you will see that the word referring to the 144,000 is “sealed”, not “saved.”
The 144,000 are servants to be SEALED and to give God’s messages to the rest of the world prior to the second coming.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:57am PT
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to paraphrase...
If you meet Jesus on the road, kill him.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 03:07am PT
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Why is it that people feel they have a better understanding of these things than others and therefore must convince them how wrong they are. You can't save anyone but yourself. Give advice only when it is asked for otherwise it falls on deaf ears. How many times have you argued with someone for extended periods only to realize you were both trying to say the same thing with different words, and then still feeling like you won or lost the argument? Human nature, I suppose.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 03:13am PT
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I'm with Bill Maher - it's embarrassing that adults would believe such utter tripe. The triumph of religion over reason is exactly what's driving religious extremists both domestically and abroad. I personally consider religion inherently dangerous by definition as it's always a bell curve continuously generating unavoidable lunatic orthodoxies and cults - and the line between "normal" suburban christians and fanatic islamic jihadists and suicide bombers is a damn short one from where I sit.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Feb 16, 2009 - 03:16am PT
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Wayno, my post was in reference to a well known fact that one rather large sect believes merely 144,000 will be saved. My post wasn’t mean as ridicule of your statement.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 03:26am PT
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Healyje, I pretty much agree with you but I was wondering how you define religion? Do mean the experience these extremists choose to call religion. I've run into plenty of these kooks but have also encountered good, balanced people that claim religion as the tool for their clarity and perspective . They both call it religion but obviously they are different things.
edit- Jennie I didn't take it that way at all. My next statement wasn't a reaction to anything you wrote, either, more of a reflection on the general attitude. I actually like what you have to say. It sounds like you've done some work on the subject.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 04:48am PT
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Wayne, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. - pretty much any form of organized religion. By 'organized' I mean dogma writ small or large. I was working with Leo Ryan and his staff on environmental issues at the time he was killed in Jonestown, that qualified from my perspective, as does any number of groups such as Aum/Aleph, Heaven’s Gate, Opus Dei, Scientology. In general, I view orthodoxies and cults as unavoidable manifestations of religious evolution - they're mutations shed from the body of the world's religious mainstream on an ongoing and continuous basis.
Just who is it that certifies 'prophets' from Moses, to Muhammad, to Joseph Smith, to David Koresh, to L. Ron Hubbard, let alone the Egyptian, Greek, and Roman empires? On just what basis should one person's or one civilazation's belief be given veracity over another's? What lends the Bible any more credence than the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, Dianetics, or Harry Potter for that matter? It's a perposterous notion on the face of it. A quick look through your local yellow pages under "Churches" should be proof enough of evolution for even the most ardent skeptic.
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