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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jan 22, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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I've heard the new rule of law is that cable news and the internet prints lots of unverified information about someone and then they are tortured or set free based on general consensus.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 22, 2009 - 03:15pm PT
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Bill writes:
"Chaz, I don't know what authority Obama is claiming."
Think it may be the same legal authority Bush claimed?
Only when Bush did it, it was lawless and illegal. Now, it's different [but the mc-same].
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Jan 22, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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Chaz, there is a logical flaw in your argument. See if you can figure it out.
You go on thinking Bush and Obama are the same. Obama's actions in the first two days show the rest of us otherwise.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 22, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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I don't see a distinction.
If it was illegal and lawless for Bush to hold these people, why isn't it also illegal for Obama to hold them?
Or perhaps it wasn't illegal for Bush to hold them?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 22, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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If Gitmo is to close in a year, does that mean it's illegal only one year from now?
Actually, there is legal precedent for such an illogical holding. The Marathon Pipeline case held, in 1982, that the portion of the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 1978 establishing bankruptcy courts was unconstitutional, but the court stayed the implementation of its decision until, ultimately, the middle of 1984. That means that for almost two years, the "unconstitutional" courts were rendering legally binding decisions. You figure it.
John
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jstan
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 06:11pm PT
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From what JE says it would appear that the law allows for exigencies implicitly. The calculation is left in the hands of the court.
Also from the Voice of America:
World Welcomes US Order to Close Guantanamo Prison
By VOA News
22 January 2009
Much of the world is welcoming President Barack Obama's decision to close the Guantanamo Bay prison camp, but the global response also indicates an awareness of the challenges involved in shutting down the unpopular detention facility.
In this Nov. 19, 2008 file photo, a detainee sleeps on a mattress on the floor of his cell at the US Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
In Europe, many countries that have been urging closure of the prison for years are now debating whether to take in ex-detainees after they are released - decisions with serious political and security implications.
In Afghanistan, where many of the detainees were captured, President Hamid Karzai said closing Guantanamo will make it easier to win international support for the war against terrorism.
Human rights groups said ordering the prison's closure is a step in the right direction, but they also are urging the new administration to follow through.
Amnesty International said it "sends an important message to the rest of the world that the USA is now closing a dark chapter in its history." Human Rights Watch official Jennifer Daskal said, "By shutting down a global symbol of abuse [it] will deprive terrorists of a powerful recruitment tool."
China Thursday called again for the return of 17 Chinese nationals being held at Guantanamo. The men are Uighurs, a Muslim minority group living in part of northwestern China.
And Cuba called for the closure of the entire U.S. military base at Guantanamo. In an interview with Russia's Itar-Tass news agency, Cuban President Raul Castro said the base should be shut down and the territory it occupies returned to what he calls its legal owners - the Cuban people.
In Saudi Arabia, the families of some detainees still being held in the prison have welcomed the decision to close it, hoping to be reunited with their relatives. But a number of former Guantanamo detainees said the decision has come too late.
Some information for this report was provided by AFP, AP and Reuters.
EDIT:
A point which no one has raised. Obama's executive order furthermore froze all proceedings with regards to each of the cases. What does this do? It removes all reasons for the system to make any attempts to gain evidence and if prisoner abuse was taking place - the systemic reasons for its continuance during the upcoming year have also been removed.
It is refreshing once more to see our governance receiving some thought.
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Jan 22, 2009 - 07:21pm PT
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Chaz, difference is Obama is taking immediate steps to remedy the situation he inherited.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 22, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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Obama said it would take a year.
Not exactly "immediate".
So isn't Obama still in violation of the same law Bush violated?
(whatever law that is)
No "change", but I guess the ass-holes locked up in Gitmo can still *hope*.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jan 23, 2009 - 02:00am PT
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Here's an interesting NYT article re: what at least one of the G-ggg-itmo (DMT--please do not go into further hysterics) has been up to since his release.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/world/middleeast/23yemen.html
(First sentence: "The emergence of a former Guantánamo Bay detainee as the deputy leader of Al Qaeda’s Yemeni branch has underscored the potential complications in carrying out the executive order President Obama signed Thursday that the detention center be shut down within a year.")
I'm no fan of Bush and his Iraq war and lots of other stuff. But some of you are a bit naive as to who is in "Gitmo" and what they'll be up to when they are released.
Edit: responding to the above points re: "logical flaws" in people's reasoning about legality of detention, remember Justice Holmes' quote: "[A] page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921). In war, US gov has been doing nasty things to people since this country's founding--that's not going to change, although maybe it should.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 09:54am PT
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So Lois this is obviously your latest two bit pony ride. As usually you harp as nauseum on your perceived reality d'jour. Obama is, in your mind, damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. You have been at this same point before. Assuming what will happen before anything is done. You have been wrong before and you are wrong now.
You are spinning wildly to justify a gross illegality. We cast the broadest net possible to catch the "evil doers". thousands of innocent fish were trapped in nets meant to catch a few sharks. We indescriminately brutalized innocent people with the same ferocity that we used on the bad guys. This has been a massive black eye on the image of America around the world. ALL of these people need to be considered "innocent UNTIL proved guilty." If they are guilty that needs to be proved in a court of law and not on the evening spew of Fox news. What are you afraid of, truth and reconciliation?
If we don't live what we profess then clearly we don't stand for those high ideals. And thus are subject to the same abuses by others. The actions of our rouge previous government have put us all in a greater state of compromise and risk. Our actions, not those of the terrorists, have put us in increased danger. We need to make amends and clean up our act to regain the moral high ground we claim.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:08am PT
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"Only a fool would give someone a second chance to harm them."
Only a fool? A fool like Jesus?
People are far less likely to attack another who treats them fairly than they are someone who abuses and humiliates them.
So Lois if you are incapable of ever forgiving or giving a second chance to anyone that has been aggressive then you must be rabidly anti-Israel right. After all they mercilessly attacked our navy vessel the USS Liberty in the Mediterranean. Their unprovoked and unjustified assault killed and wounded a lot of good Americans and very nearly sunk a vert sensitive US naval vessel. The even strafed life boats and shot down two American flags that day. So have you addedyour prolific voice to those calling for divestment from Israel? Or are you spinning in a land of double standards?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:15am PT
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RIGHT ON DMT!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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Fatty's right again.
One of the rats released from Gitmo is now #2 of Yemen's local chapter of Al Qaeda. That's nice, let them all out!
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/23/mideast/detainee.1-414168.php
He's suspected to behind the American Embassey bombing in Yemen.
edit: Ah, granite beat me to the punch...mine's a different source though.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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"It is sort of like what we all do here. We quote people out of context and then ascribe philosophies to them which are ludicrous if you look at everything the person actually said."
This you know well Lois as it is YOUR S.O.P.
Now how about addressing my previous point more directly?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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We don't keep everyone in US prison locked up forever, even though we know many of them will commit crimes after their release. We're going to have to fact the fact that some G'mo detainees we release will re-offend, or be guilty of an incredible human rights abuse by keeping them in jail forever. Hell of a choice. If that is LEB's point, I don't see any of you disagree.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:44am PT
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Dingus, I understand your position. But what if a guy can lead you back to the rat's nest and take out a whole cell? I'd say get the info out of him and then lock him up for life if he cooperates, if he doesn't then...well, you know.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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"These crocodile tears being shed for a bunch of killing machines are nothing more than an ideological position."
Skip, for the billionth time, it's not about crocodile tears for terrorists, it's about us being a better country, following international and national laws and norms, and not ditching such principles for fear.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 12:02pm PT
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"And that is why, he is not going to be freeing any terrorists."
Lois, nearly any terrorist freeing will be BUSH's fault.
When you obtain tainted evidence through torture, which no legitimage tribunal will admit except for the illegal kangaroo kind that BUSH set up, then you have a problem convicting people.
BUSH f*#ked this up big time: Obama is stuck making the best of a bad situation.
THAT is BUSH's legacy.
Edit: I just read what Dingus said earlier, and as usual he said it better than I did and was spot on:
"The legacy of Alberto Gonzales will be haunting the justice dept for quite some time.
For you 'bbbbbut they might come back and get us' fear mongers (you know who you are) - you were warned this would happen, when the law caught up to Bush Cheney. You were f*#king A WARNED.
You supported it anyway. Now you whine about the results YOU GOT.
The eventual disposition of the prisoners falls on the shoulders of the illegal actions that brought them there.
Step up and take responsibility. Or STFU. "
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