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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 03:00pm PT
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I hope I'm done posting on this thread. Rather do something productive with my time besides doing research for folks to don't read it and believe what they want to believe and state the exact opposite of documented facts.
At least read Philo's post above regarding who supported the Nazi more
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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Are you refuting the info Philo posted above fatty or just ignoring it for the second time?
peace
karl
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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Karl - don't need to remind you nothing is 'illegal' when you have a badge and a government to back you up.
...that patch of dirt is ours now...see it says so on this
official piece of paper!
Everyone who can does it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
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My vote is he is ignoring it for a second time. It doesn't fit into the AIPAC talking points for the day.
Daffty the earlier Mufti was an honorable man who many including indigenous Jews looked up to. But his role was largely ceremonial and superfluous. The "Grand" Mufti that you are so fond of as the archetypical Palestinian was largely ignored and mostly reviled by the Palestinians. The Office of "GRAND" Mufti was an artifice created by the British in hopes of rallying the Arabs to the allied cause in spite of the recent brutal british occupation. As usually happens when colonial powers try to seat a strongman puppet it backfired.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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"He also stood by while Hammas killed Palestinians and said nothing."
Baloney. You don't know Philo. You have no idea what he has done or hasn't done. How may times must we tell you that we decry what Hamas has done before you accept this?
What Israel has done has gone into the area of vengeance. They are no longer simply protecting themselves. Did you give up on Jesus' teachings? It certainly appears that you have. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.
What Karl is trying to teach you is to look at both sides of the equation. Fatty would have you believe that it is simply a matter of hamas stopping sending rockets and then Israel would act all nice. Nothing is further from the truth. Perhaps if you tried to put yourself in the Palistinians shoes, you would understand this.
but you wont because your ego is involved. Oh well.
Karl and Jello are correct. You don't want to know, so there is no further point in trying to talk to you.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 04:03pm PT
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Hamas itself is multifaceted.
They actually won real democratic elections because their charitable arm was well regarded for strict rectitude and lack of corruption. Sadly, the more secular and more moderate Palestinian Authority is also rife with corruption. The people voted for who they thought really cared about them.
They are also terrorists.
The original leaders of Israel were also terrorist. They killed British.
Wake up. All the hands are dirty. It's better to stand up for justice on all sides than pick a dirty side and let em act dirty
If you know so much Skip, why did you stand by "Thousands and Thousands" when it coudn't possibly be true?
peace
karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
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"Wake up. All the hands are dirty. It's better to stand up for justice on all sides than pick a dirty side and let em act dirty".
Well said Karl my sentiments exactly.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 04:13pm PT
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I'm with Karl too.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Dec 28, 2008 - 04:16pm PT
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im not with anyone at the moment, but I think the Nazi card gets thrown down WAYYYY too often. Nonsense.
Its very fair to say neither side is "lily white" in terms of wrongs committed. Human nature being what it is, one side will have to "win" for any closure to result or else there will constantly be this back and forth fighting.
As I see it, if Israel "wins" it would not be without the death of innocents but the end result would not be extermination and death camps and the like. I'd rather see the Israelis win than Hamas. Winning is never without cost. Arguing about who will win more cleanly is utter nonsense.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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Skipper you are sounding like the kid on the playground saying... "Oh yeah, well my dad can beat up your dad".
And nothing you are saying bears the slightest semblance to what people are actually saying. And yet you persist on misrepresenting. You seem desperate. Take a time out. We and the truth will still be here for you.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 28, 2008 - 05:35pm PT
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Damn Skip, did you take the time to type that out? It doesn't look like a "cut and paste."
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:01pm PT
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Skip, I understand that you do not condone torture. The point is that you voted for George Bush who does support torture, and if you want to avoid reaping the consequences of your actions, then you needed to do something about it. At the very least you could have written your representatives and told them that you do not support torture. Assuming that they know your mind like Lois assumes is a mistake. You will eventually reap what you sow. I was trying to help you avoid that.
Isn't that no different then your demand that the palistinian people do something about their leadership?
The difference between what I believe and how the Isrealis act is that I don't think that you should be tortured just because you support George Bush. Nor do I think the Palistinians should be deprived of water because they voted for Hamas or that their homes should be demolished because one of their children fights back against Israel. These are acts of vengeance and do nothing to solve the problems.
An act of vengeance does nothing to solve an act of vengeance.
I could sit here all day and call you a moron. Say that you are full of sh#t. Go on and on about what an idiot you are, but this would solve nothing.
So I am trying to learn from my mistakes and the actions of others and not repeat these mistakes over and over again.
If you will not learn from me, then heed the words of Jesus.
Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.
Love you enemies as yourself.
Of course you must learn to love yourself before you will have much success at loving others. This is the area that I struggle with.
I don't think that you are a moron. I think that you have hardened your heart to the plight of the Palistinians and thus you find it too difficult to see their side.
No one has asked you to take their side blindly, we have simply asked you to see that Israel is not innocent in their actions. The only hope for peace is for both sides to see that they are doing bad things. Until that time, there is not hope for peace.
I have insulted you in the past. For this I have apologized and do continue to apologize. But at some point you have to accept the apology and stop flinging the past in my face.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:04pm PT
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The Israelis at least TRY to avoid civilian casualities instead of sending nail-bombs into restaurants and night clubs.
Militants often operate against Israel from civilian areas, and that has led to steep civilian casualties in the past when Israel has retaliated. Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language voice mails on their cell phones from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473145,00.html
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
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Right on cue Bluering with more diatribe and propaganda.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
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philo, how many times will these people have to declare Intifadas against Israel before they learn they will lose and probably lose civilians too due to 'lions of Islam' hiding next to civilian buildings?
How many times? Until Israel surrenders and lets more nail-bombs into their borders? Should they show compassion again and be nail-bombed?
No more! The people of Palestine need to seek peaceful leaders, not anti-semites and 'monkey-haters'.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
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I am not sure what "monkey haters" is intended to imply but you do realize that the Palestinians are also people of Semitic heritage? Don't you?
When will you get past the notion that Israel is exempt from condemnation for it's actions? Or that the Palestinians are fighting just because they are blood thirsty savages? Or that they have no just cause. Or that everything would be perfect if they just stopped and played nice because then Israel would play nice too. How long can you not pay attention?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
Mercy Blue, the same could be said for Israel.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 06:51pm PT
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Yes, I do, philo, but only Hamas refers to Jews as the children of monkeys. Remeber Hamas Mickey mouse?
How do they make that correlation if they're both Semitic people? Must be anti-semitism directly only at religious Jews. Sounds racist to me, at least bigoted. No?
Most of the people there get along, so why so much conflict? What is the source of this hatred in your opinion?
Edit: I know this sh#t is complex, John, that's why ya gotta watch it carefully.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 07:11pm PT
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"Yes, I do, philo, but only Hamas refers to Jews as the children of monkeys".
Oh come on Blue did you miss all the quotes by leading Israelis that I posted that called the Palestinians all manner of animals unfit to exist? It's a two way street of thoughtless hate and violence.
"Most of the people there get along, so why so much conflict? What is the source of this hatred in your opinion"?
Since you asked please listen with an open mind. The conflict is the result of the Zionist movement's undeniable intent to create a modern theocracy consisting solely of Jews through out the whole of what they refer to as "Greater Israel". Only problem is the land already belonged to someone else, the Palestinians. Who have been forcible evicted from their land and homes and forced to live in oppressive, humiliating and brutal occupation ever since. While being the greater victims here the Palestinians have been systematically vilified to the point where any American incapable of free thought has been convinced that all Palestinians are Anti-Semitic Terrorists.
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