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WBraun
climber
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So the two side’s dispute there particular views
In the court of law the two sides are presented to the judge/jury. Now who really owns this rock and who really is the judge?
Surely not us ....?????
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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so i guess this ballo-rena guy just likes to pick fights and talk smack? whatever.
ben, i think your heart is in the right place, but again, to accept a given approach you need to explore where that aproach would take us all. no one out there is interested in being kept off of climbs.
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WBraun
climber
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And .... I'm terribly afraid I'm seeing an "elitist attitude" from you Ben.
I thought the elitist sets the example on his actions and respects the rest.
Example; The Crimson Cringe
We did this climb for a while (with those bolts that you referenced Bachar chopping) without belaying there. One day John decides to chop them.
Big fu-cking deal! It didn’t up the ant ante anything whatsoever except remove two pieces of metal.
It’s not the bolts it’s the vision and spirit of the ascent.
Now I free soloed up to those fu-cking bolts and I could have chopped sh#t too.
What the fu-ck would’ve that proved? That’s right, absolutely fu-cking nothing.
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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I love a good bolting flame war.
The US citizens own the rock. The climbing community establishes what is acceptable, this thread is part of that process.
My 2 cents. Moving an bolted anchor to a location that makes more sense is acceptable if done right.
The first acent style or more specifically the spirit of the first ascent should be repsected and emulated. After all no one is going to siege the Nose over 18 months right?
Adding bolts to the Salathe or Nutcracker(unless it's a variation) is quite lame. Those routes are a testament to RR's style and shouldn't be altered. I would support anyone chopping bolts on those.
But the Nose is a different story. I believe WH had no problems with the rap route, etc. Of course it shouldn't be grid bolted but shiny two bolt rap anchors are in character with that route IMO.
The idea of removing bolts because someone could free solo a climb isn't proud it's ludicrous.
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WBraun
climber
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The US citizens own the rock.
Did they make it create it, You're dreaming man. The U.S. citizens don't own sh-it!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It is interesting following a Valley bolting thread. You folks have a fairly unique environment, history, and ethics. Most places don't have a descent ethic...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Interesting thread......It is not just YOS that has gone through these growing pains. Ben, I support your ethics with the exception of replacing mank, especially on rapp routes. If I am unworthy to do a route, I will stay off of that route. But as far as mank goes let me relate this story to you....
In the early 80's in Indian Creek there was a first ascencionist who snagged all the best lines on all the cliffs (well maybe not all but a large number..). On many routes he left one machine bolt 1/2", hammered into a 3/8" hole for a rapp anchor. When asked why he put one in, it was all he felt was needed and also he was in a hurry. On some of these routes when my partners and I did them, we backed them up...On others, it became the last guys "adventure" to rapp off the single bolt. I had absolutely no problem with backing these up, it was my own ass that was being saved and I did not blame the FAist. It was not his responsibility to make the place safe for all others, in those days the place was still an adventure.
I think it was the late 80's when a really great fellow, with a family died when one of these bolts pulled out as he was getting ready to rapp off of the Cat Wall. The single bolt pulled out of the hole. The guy was very expereinced and had done the FA of one of the Torres Towers. His kids lost their father. Can we put a price on the addition of one more anchor to back that one up? Is it ethically better to risk ones life by not drilling one tiny hole in the rock for the rapp anchor? Think about how your own daughter may respond to this dilemma, and no offense, you may be brave and hold ethics in high regard, but it doesnt matter what the hell you are willing to risk, I doubt your daughter (when she is old enough to decide) would risk her father over such an issue....
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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"Then, lets not forget the Salathe wall or fail to mention the Steck Salathe', which now have more bolts in them than the FA parties drilled."
The SS is a different route today than that climbed by the FA party. Far different. Yes, bolts were added: to belays, and two bolts placed on the face pitch where the face was previously protected with pins, long since rusted away in place.
Each and every 3/8" bolt I placed on the Steck-Salathe' was discussed and approved by the man who put up the route.
The project was, in fact, suggested by Steck.
Based on what I've read here, Ben, I don't think that will matter one bit to you.
But it certainly matters to me.
Brutus
P.S. Don't go holding the ASCA responsible for Steck-Salathe', either. ASCA was not involved in that project.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Now that post brings up a question for you Brutus - you replaced pins with bolts; why not replace the pins with more of the same on SS? And maybe a few of you might comment in general on bolts vs. pins where pin placements are available; and on swapping out pins for bolts in general. My personal approach is gear, then pins if possible, and bolts as a last resort...
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WBraun
climber
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why not replace the pins with more of the same on SS?
Because the idiots that come to Yosemite see a pin and immediately think “Booty that’s mine now! Let me take it for me”
I was up on El Cap fixing once with Bridwell when some dip – sh-it down below was removing a pin that we had put in to hold the fixed line in place. I yell down at him WTF you doing and he runs away.
Do you guys actually think out things or just want to rant about everything?
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wildone
Social climber
the little ditch
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Classic, werner.
So, how ya doin' on that book?
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John F. Kerry
Social climber
Boston, MA
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...I think it was the late 80's when a really great fellow, with a family died when one of these bolts pulled out as he was getting ready to rapp off of the Cat Wall. The single bolt pulled out of the hole. The guy was very expereinced and had done the FA of one of the Torres Towers...
Good example. According to BenWah's stated ethics, that guy got what he deserved. He shouldn't have been on the route if he wasn't willing to risk death on the descent. Tough tittie for his young daughter, too. I don't agree with this, I'm just noting that by what Ben has been endorsing, there's no logical escape from this conclusion.
Everyone's a hardman until bodies are broken and the bones are sticking out.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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"Now that post brings up a question for you Brutus - you replaced pins with bolts; why not replace the pins with more of the same on SS?"
I didn't replace the pins in kind, because the pin placements were no longer usable, either for pins or clean pro. Routes change, and the SS has changed more than most over the years.
Bolting in general: I too would much rather place clean pro than pins, and pins than bolts, and try to follow this ethic on FAs and FFAs except where it would interfere with my continued survival.
Nor do I add bolts to existing routes except with the FA permission, with one caveat: On walls I have occasionally found myself facing old, corroded mank bolts at belays, and I did not have the tools to pull them to replace. In these situations, I have occasionally added a bolt, but I do not endorse such actions. Having learned from my own mistakes, I usually carry bolt removal equipment with me on walls these days. When I can get out of my rocking chair long enough to stagger up a wall, that is.
Brutus
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WBraun
climber
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Besides, .... fixed pins loosen and fall out over time.
Anyways Mank with mank = more mank
WTF, .... what a screwed up conversation, people here preach there is no God and no soul and then preach all this bolt nonsense!
I'm outa here ....... ha ha ha ha
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Ballaroama
Trad climber
so.cal
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Two times I stated Ben has no right to tell people when or where or how to climb and for me this is the subject. To portray those that disagree with him as unethical is wrong. Go climb and do whatever but when you start to dictate how others climb you need your head examined. My argument is these chumps shouldn't have any say what you do in life and that includes climbing. So if ben and friends think they are rock cops and tell others not to go to Yosemite it goes beyond a conversation about ethics, it becomes a conversation about idiots that wish to control others. And Matt if you think my threats are empty just stay tuned to look at Bens face and when its severely rearranged you will know I had A visit with the bitch, I know who he is.
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mike hartley
climber
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I'm only going to comment on the "replacing a pin with a bolt" issue and only in regards to freeclimbs. Decades ago I used to think that you should always replace a pin with a pin when possible because it worked with the rock's natural features. I gave that up long ago about the same time I gave up wearing a swami and using goldline. If everyone carried a hammer on freeclimbs then maybe the "pin for a pin" might make sense. But since 99.99% of all trad climbers that I've seen never carry a real hammer that pin is going to get weaker with each passing freeze/thaw cycle. So the 1st "X" number of ascents have good pro and everyone thereafter gets less than. I'd much rather see an "Olevsky" chip job that creates a clean placement or a bolt rather than pro that doesn't match the reality of how climbers actually climb these days. Pins for free pro (not including drilled angles) seem like a relic from another era to me.
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Khun Duen Baad
climber
Retirement
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I think in any bolting debate it is important that everybody recognizes the difference between style and ethics. Style affects only your ascent, ethics affects every ascent that will ever follow. The whole bolting situation (not to mention the systematic regression of standards in general) in Yosemite today is too depressing to talk about in depth, unfortunately
Look at Yosemite today; NOTHING important happens there. NOTHING. What happened to the days when people were running laps on Midnight Lightning barefoot? What about when everybody had done Hangdog Flyer? How about when 10.96 was a neccessary classic?
We've truly entered a dark era when the Raven flies around telling people what to do (doesn't most mythology recognize that as a bad omen) and the last hopes of stopping a yoga-crazed maniac and the renegade band of Drillers from overwhelming all that was created sacred lie in "Minerals", AKA The UniChopper, and a Bible thumping Christian who seems to be the only one willing to defend to soul of what climbing is supposed to be, which is mostly both hard and dangerous. It's rock climbing for God's sake, it's supposed to be difficult!!
Any route was not a route until somebody climbed up it, in any STYLE, and called it X route. After that ascent, any permanent change to the first ascentionist's route is UNETHICAL, because at this point it is an existing route with a specific set of parameters that must be met by any potential ascentionist. You have to get from A to B without adding a C and a D.
The bottom line should be this: IF YOU CAN'T CLIMB IT, DON'T!
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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How can you bring up the definition of style and ethics and then confuse the two?
e.g. "the soul of what climbing is supposed to be, which is mostly both hard and dangerous. It's rock climbing for God's sake, it's supposed to be difficult!!"
The soul of what climbing is supposed to be is a personal choice of style not ethics.
RR once said something along the lines of "I never did anything out of control or dangerous".
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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"Any route was not a route until somebody climbed up it, in any STYLE, and called it X route. After that ascent, any permanent change to the first ascentionist's route is UNETHICAL, because at this point it is an existing route with a specific set of parameters that must be met by any potential ascentionist. You have to get from A to B without adding a C and a D."
Bull. Truth is, some routes I've put up are, in their original condition, unsafe. Sometimes I was just plain stupid, but lucky enough to live to tell about it. If, in retrospect I go back and make the route safer for myself and those who follow, who are you to tell me I shouldn't or that I'm being unethical?
Brutus
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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This whole discussion isn’t about keeping people from climbing in Yosemite, no matter where they come from and what there abilities are. It’s about respecting the original routes and the preservation of history. If we are going to arbitrarily add chicken bolts and make everything easier and safer, then what do we have left in the end? What controls the lower limits that these routes may fall to? If we are going to make something easier and safer, how much easier and safer do we get to make it? Who gets to decide? As Matt said earlier, it’s all about The First Ascent Ethic.
Well, I just got off the phone with Jim Bridwell. What a super-cool guy. I asked if it was ok to quote him on some of the things that we discussed and he said that it was ok with him. Here is just a little bit of what he said (and I’m not making this up).
To start off, I mentioned what I was calling about and said that I knew that he was upset about what happened to the Aquarian Wall. He immediately stopped me and said that he wasn’t upset, he was PISSED, and there is a difference between being upset and being pissed. (We have discussed these issues before.) I then asked him what he thought about all of the bolt additions to Yosemite wall routes. He continued on about the Sea of Dreams and how we need to preserve the history and legacy of routes. “Climbing isn’t for the masses”, he said. “Americans don’t have any courage.”
He told me about the time when he was guiding Dihedral Wall back in the 70’s and how he was able to clean out 33 pins (on lead) because “the person before wasn’t good enough to get them out.” According to Bridwell, that’s how you build up your pin rack.
Bridwell also stated that he favors clean up missions like what we did on Zodiac much more than what the ASCA is currently doing to Yosemite wall routes. And for those of you who are still skeptical about what we did, go talk to any of the locals in the Valley or any of the guides that work for YMS. I have had nothing but support for the Zodiac clean up from the local Yosemite climbing community (aside from the proprietor of this site and his accomplice).
When I mentioned gym climbers and their feelings towards being able to climb in Yosemite, Bridwell said that gym climbers should stay in gyms and if they want to climb in Yosemite, then they have to step up and climb the routes in the manner in which they were put up, without adding bolts or bringing the routes down to their level. He went off about safety and how climbing isn’t supposed to be safe – never was and never should be.
Dingus, I mentioned your call to him, which he didn’t exactly remember and I brought up the route Absolutely Free Center, which he did remember. I think that your portrayal of him is not quite accurate. He remembers quite a lot and does care (VERY MUCH) about the addition of bolts – most definitely. As far as rap bolts are concerned, he doesn’t view them as he does protection bolts on lead but if there is a tree to rap from or a horn to sling (Geek Towers…) then that is much better than placing bolts.
I’ll have more to say on this subject in my ‘diatribe’ when it's finished…
ps – if you don’t see the slightest bit of humor in the American Chopper name (stolen from the Discovery Channel TV show…) then maybe you are missing something. One of my bros from this site even sent me an American Chopper hat for the fun of it – pretty cool looking. I’m not high and mighty nor am I some sort of bolt chopping hero. I am also not a bolting or bolt chopping authority nor a rock cop. I am just very passionate (sometimes to the point where my emotions get the better of me) about the preservation of Yosemite wall routes and respecting the FAist’s style and vision. Bridwell is the real hero.
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