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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal Hell
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Just before Palin was announced as running VP for McCain I had just finished reading the novel, "The Handmaids Tale". I couldn't help but relate the theme of this novel to a person like Palin who would be the catalyst to advance such a sick society....maybe it is a stretch but....
Here is a summary of the novel:
"Religious Fanaticism
The Handmaid's Tale is a warning about what might happen if extreme religious ideology is followed as a solution to societal problems. It suggests that allowing religious fundamentalists to run a government is a recipe for injustice, cruelty and oppression. The specific targets of the novel are fundamentalist Protestants in America, sometimes known as the Christian right because of their conservative views on social issues such as abortion, women's rights and gay rights. Atwood wrote The Handmaid's Tale during the height of the Reagan era in the United States-the presidency of Ronald Reagan, from 1981 to 1989-during which political and religious conservatism was on the rise. The novel takes some of the positions advocated by religious conservative and exaggerates them. For example, many conservatives, both then and now, wish to re-criminalize abortion. So in the novel, doctors who performed abortions, even when such practices were legal, are hanged at the Wall. Conservatives also tend to oppose gay rights; in the novel gays are hanged for "gender treachery." Another conservative position was that women should stay at home and raise their children, so in the novel, the first thing the Gilead regime does is to ban women from possessing money or owning property and to value them either as domestic companions for powerful men (the Wives), or as producers of babies (the Handmaids). A leading campaigner for the conservative view of a woman's role was Phyllis Schlafly, who is believed to be at least in part the model for Serena Joy in the novel.
Although the Christian right is mainly what Atwood had in mind, the same stricture might be applied to fundamentalist religious thought of any stripe. The uniforms of the Handmaids, for example, which hide the body and most of the face from view, resemble forms of dress for women in theocratic Islamic societies where women have few rights. The cruel punishments in Gilead, such as amputation, resemble the practices of the more extreme Muslim states today".
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Jim E
climber
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GDavis,
I'm not disputing the idea that Christians will support Obama. I take issue with the 'a number of us' statement. I'm certain there is a large number of Christians that will support Obama. I'm also certain there is a large number that will not. I also believe that if they feel Obama to be going in the wrong direction they should say so just as I have with the current administration.
It's all part of the checks and balances that make our government, our country, work. It's also those same checks and balances that is one of our governments greatest weaknesses, unfortunately.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Ultimately I don't think John McCain is to blame. Yes, he picked her. But who picked him. I think it is very important that we understand this, otherwise we risk going back to sleep and not paying attention to what nearly half of America thinks. Belittling it is simply not enough. We need to understand it so that we can work with it. A good example of what happens when we go to sleep is how California voted to ban gay marriage. Most folks think of California as solidly liberal, yet this proposition passed.
The things we believe in need to be nurtured if we want them to survive.
Lynne, don't be surprised if people are all agro until we get this figured out. It doesn't work to expect people to just change overnight. You may want everything to be nice nice but it doesn't work that way. You can either be part of helping deal with this problem, or you can bury your head and just add to it. You said you were tired of dealing with it, well guess what. Most folks are. I would love to just put these issues down and go play and forget that America has the potential to drive itself into the ground. We came a hairsbreadth away from a 3rd world war. We have people dying overseas right now. If we don't look for the real reasons, then we wont be prepared the next time these issues appear and we certainly wont be able to solve our current batch of problems. Just because we wish that it would go away does not mean that it will, especially if we do not deal with it.
Besides, you tried to shove down our throats the thread about what we thought Obama would do on the very night he won. Instead of giving people a moment to process what happened. Your excuse was that we would have done the same thing. I wonder how you can know that. So you need to look for the beam in your own eye before accusing others of being aggro. Your intent may have been good, but you method was off. Our intent is also good, though our methods my not be perfect. So perhaps you could be a bit more forgiving and try to help with the problem.
So I will ask you a question. What do you think were the reasons that we nearly ended up with a president who doesn't know that Africa is a continent?
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dirtbag
climber
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"Ultimately I don't think John McCain is to blame. Yes, he picked her. But who picked him. I think it is very important that we understand this, otherwise we risk going back to sleep and not paying attention to what nearly half of America thinks. Belittling it is simply not enough. We need to understand it so that we can work with it. A good example of what happens when we go to sleep is how California voted to ban gay marriage. Most folks think of California as solidly liberal, yet this proposition passed. "
Do you mean, who picked him in the primaries or who picked him last Tuesday?
In the primaries, he seemed like the most common-sense, if occassionally ill-tempered, candidate of the bunch. I never thought he would give so little attention to picking his #2. Neither did Obama's campaign, apparently.
If you are talking about last Tuesday...well, the people didn't pick her, fortunately, and in fact her candidacy hurt him in the end according to final polls. Hopefully future nominees will have learned from McCain's mistake, which seems obvious enough without having to learn the hard way, and do a good vetting.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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That is a creepy thought Karen, that was a truly creepy book.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I meant, who picked him to be a candidate and why. Why is he the best that we had to pick from? Don't blame John McCain for being dumb or irrational. Ultimately we pick our candidates, so what is it that is in us that gave us John McCain? I think about the rolling stones article about John McCain and I wonder how people could not see what they were saying. How could supposedly religious people accept a man who would call his wife a cunt?
What I think has happened is that we have got so caught up in taking pleasure from life, that we haven't paid attention to how life works. Plus we have accepted a winning is everything attitude. I don't mean any individual person here. I understand that we each have a different level of understanding. I include myself in this and especially point the spotlight on myself because I realize that the only way forward is to fix myself. I can't fix anyone here.
So when I look at issues like this, then I want to find the root so that I don't have to deal with it again, or if I do have to deal with it again, it isn't so powerful. Under George Bush's leadership, we nearly had world war 3. That is astounding to me and is part of what drives me to understand these issues.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Lois, you and Palin have the same problem. You are both intelligent and accomplished. The problem is you are so close minded you can't see your self delusion.
In another thread you immediately started thinking about 'your team' winning in 2012. You won't even give Obama a chance. By all indicators Obama and Congress have indicated they will govern from the center. As a moderate I applaud that. But as a steadfast idealouge you won't see any possibilities that the 'other team' may actually be better than 'your team'.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Haha...LEB calling other people mean-spirited. This is cute.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
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" . . . She is sharp and articulate."
Given the videos and sound bites (of Sarah Paulin) that have surfaced the last month, the previous statement is, of course, preposterous, and is no more drawn from the real and actual world than lava is drawn from the desert. The woman was clueless, and tried to bluff her way past difficult questions, only digging herself a deeper hole. Fundamentally (when, for instance, she refused to admit she didn't know the names of ANY news magazines that she supposedly read), she was thoroughly dishonest about what she knew and did not know, and for this she had to be called out by anyone with intellectual integrity, and celebrated by all who put no currency in deportment and actual wherewithal, and are bluffed by "accomplishments." Every rational person now clearly understands, by virtue of incontrovertible evidence, that Paulin was a fraud and a pretender to the vice presidency - so let that argument be over, once and for all.
The larger question is - how do we move forward? I was listening to a zen master last night talk about "How do you step forward from the top of a 100-foot pole?" This is an old zen koan, and it's worth pondering. Paulin can't help us here -she proved herself a pitiful political fraud to all thinking nations - and ragging on her is of limited value.
So, how do we take that forward step?
JL
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"Again, Palin is a very good person who has accomplished much good in her state. "
This is your opinion Lois. You seem to hold it because you identify with her because you have been labeled as dumb and so has she. Just because you may be a good person does not necessarily equate that she is. You have no idea if she is good because you don't really know her. Plus how can you say she has accomplished much good in her state. Do you know this? Can you point to what good she has done? Many would disagree with you.
Please try to separate your feelings about Palin from what you perceive that some here have labeled you. You get caught up in your ego and often can't see that your logic has gone right out the door. The only solution is to heal yourself of this. You taught me that being attached to whether someone accepted what I said would just drive me crazy and that craziness would keep me from being rational. Well how about applying that to yourself. You were not rational last night. It is not rational to say that someone's ideas are ALL bad simply because they took help from the government. That is what you did last night to High.
Just try to see this. You were feeling vulnerable because you came out so strongly for Palin and then she lost. You have deep seated beliefs that winning is everything. So a part of you wanted to be loyal to her but a part of you is upset that she lost. You took that upsetness out on High. You allowed your ego to keep you from seeing that it is not very good for a candidate who may end up being president to not know that Africa is a continent. You could relate to this because you have made simple mistakes in the past, so you empathize with Palin, but try to see that that question wasn't about what tire to put on a car, it was about the very thing she was presenting herself as being an expert on. Don't you want a President that understands the world? Isn't that part of what they should be expert on?
You have not known answers to questions outside nursing and so you could see how someone else could not know everything, but I bet you hold yourself to a high standard when it comes to nursing. So what is wrong with holding Palin to a high standard when it comes to politics? That is supposedly her area of expertise. Or are you okay with having someone who is not a expert as the leader of the most powerful country in the world. Like Karl stated earlier.. That would be like allowing a plumber to do brain surgery on you.
I have said a lot here so I hope that you will take the time to absorb this and not rush to conclusions that may not be true.
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adam d
climber
CA
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I don't think much "convincing" goes on in these threads anyhow but if someone doesn't see Palin as a complete disaster already I don't think they'll ever get it. She is the best argument against herself.
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Jim E
climber
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"Meanwhile, we have able-bodied men who bad mouth Palin all the while letting the taxpayer support their own children (and whining that the government does not "give" them enough)."
Examples please.
You need to get over your delusion that liberal means whiner. I've never seen any statistics or study that draws any correlation between political affiliation and welfare recipients. So please, enlighten us as to where you get this notion.
edit: to the post above- what a load of self serving hypocritical horse shit
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dirtbag
climber
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"I meant, who picked him to be a candidate and why. Why is he the best that we had to pick from? Don't blame John McCain for being dumb or irrational. Ultimately we pick our candidates, so what is it that is in us that gave us John McCain? I think about the rolling stones article about John McCain and I wonder how people could not see what they were saying. How could supposedly religious people accept a man who would call his wife a cunt? "
Well, a minority of the Republican electorate did early in the primaries, then one by one the other candidates dropped out until he was the one left. Then they (rather reluctantly) supported him. So, most didn't really support him, they just got on board because he was their only realisitic choice. Having voted in my share of presidential elections, I guess I understand that to some degree.
But I think you can only assign so much blame to primary voters for this one. Most did not support McCain and probably do not know enough to predict he would do this. How much can you really learn about someone's character and judgement skills based on what the media feeds you? You have to put a certain amount of trust in these guys and make a leap of faith they'll do the right thing.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Largo-
Where have you been man? You're plain spoken but eloquent musings have long been absent from these threads where you are needed most.
LEB- You are blind to even yourself. You're like a child that keeps hitting people and then doesn't understand why people don't like her.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"How much can you really learn about someone's character and judgement skills based on what the media feeds you?"
This is a good question. I still have to ponder it because I think there is an even deeper question to be asked.
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jstan
climber
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A good question:
"How much can you really learn about someone's character and judgement skills based on what the media feeds you? "
A good answer:
That's why we have campaigns. I learned all I needed to know about a McCain presidency when he, as a 72 year old with a history of cancer, picked Palin.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"I am defending person(s) who are being attacked by the "debater." "
You are using a poor defense. Attacking the attacker rather then their points is the last resort of someone who has lost. It is a sorry defense and does nothing for the person you are defending, it only reveals your weakness.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oh lois, we have shown you more then one instance where you have attacked someone first. Get over that whole who attacked who first. Mercy, you have such a blind spot on this issue.
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tinker b
climber
your local park
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my aunt told me that she heard today that trig the baby was actualy bristols, but i haven't found that anywhere...
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