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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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John,
An example of jugging a weighted line -
When I did Zodiac in the late 80s, we had hammmocks and bivvied at the "ledge for one" below the gray circle. We fixed two pitches above with our two ropes, so our haul line was the lower rope. Because the lower pitch starts with a traverse, my partner could not just release the bag and still have something to ascend. So he "rode the bag" as he released it. And then jumared up the weighted haul line.
I don't jug weighted lines routinely, but will do it if there's a good reason for it. I've done a few walls as a team of 3, and we never jugged a weighted line - the 3rd person always jugged before the haul bag was released from the lower anchor.
[stich: ] The 2nd person waited at the lower anchor and did not release the haul bag until the 3rd person had jumared up the haul line. Then the 2nd person started cleaning the pitch. On the Shield had a 4th rope, so the 3rd jugged on a rope separate from the haul line. Actually this meant we could start the counterweight hauling immediately on the lower angle part of the Shield. On the Salathe', we did not have a good 3-person system, as the 3rd person jugged the haul line, and carried a second set of 2 ropes! Very heavy for the jugging. Later we realized the leader should do a pre-haul by hauling up the second set of ropes before hauling the bag. For a good explanation of a good 3-person system, see:
http://fishproducts.com/howto/howto.html
http://fishproducts.com/howto/ht3person.html
Note, in general I wouldn't recommend a 3-person team if it is the first wall for everyone.
If you have a series of fixed ropes on a route, anchored at each station, you will not be able to tie into the rope unless you release it from the anchor below. But you have redundancy by having two ascenders on the rope. When you take one ascender off the rope to pass an anchor, you can clip yourself temporarily to the anchor to maintain redundancy.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Oct 23, 2008 - 03:18pm PT
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I'm not following all of this exactly, but one thing I am understanding is that with the Petzls (I have a pair that I bought last spring that I have used on one wall, with no problems) if the ascender is not parallel to the rope then there is a risk of the cam not holding. Clint's Petzl instructions show this specifically, and apparently (although this is a part I don't understand) placing a biner in the top hole of the ascender keeps the cam oriented in a safe position.
When the accident occurred it is clear that the haul line was in reach of the belay, hence allowing James to attach his jugs to the line. I'm guessing that in order to attach his jugs, he most likely had to grab the line and pull it closer to himself. (That is too say while the haul line was in reach, it may not have been running in such a way that pulling on the haul line was unnecessary.) If he did pull on the haul line, then perhaps he changed the angle between the haul line and his ascender to one in which the cam would not bite. On the one wall that I did, I never placed a biner in the upper hole of my Petzl jugs, although I very well may in the future. Is seems possible that James did not have a biner in the upper hole.
This is pure speculation, but it would possibly explain why he slid 30 feet down the haul line. As stated upthread, this is the most important question: why did the ascenders not hold?
We all get away with so much, especially when one considers how such a subtle "mistake" could have such huge consequences.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Oct 23, 2008 - 04:31pm PT
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Clint,
Remember, I was having trouble with mine slipping at the start of the season. I had to learn to slow down, make sure they were locked on, then weight them. Now that I am used to them it's no problem and I feel safer with them than I do with my Jumars. Just a matter of choice I guess. As far as back up goes, with both ends tied off, I am thinking of dragging a screamer, with a Tibloc attached, off the belay loop. What do you think? So sad when a good climber dies. Possibly no fault of his own. My condolences to his family and friends.
Roger Brown
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Oct 23, 2008 - 04:39pm PT
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Here is some idle speculation. How many of us have a rope with a minor nick in the sheath? Most of the time we do not worry about it because the sheath only adds about 10-20% to the strength of the rope. However, jugging relies on the sheath not the core. Next for a haul line we tend to use worn ropes which may have lots of nicks and other sheath wear.
So I am going to give James the benefit of the doubt that he rigged his jugs correctly but the sheath had a nick in it. His weight which would loaded predominantly the sheath combined with the weight of the haul bag which would have loaded both the sheath and core was enough to break sheath thus causing the fall.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 23, 2008 - 04:48pm PT
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i gotta come clean..
up until now, i was seconding my rope-soloed pitches using two petzl jumars. i'm pretty careful about keeping them above me, but sometimes a move warrants two hands, and i occasionally climb above my jumars, then pull them up when i can.
upon reading this sad but educational thread, im off to find a new seconding system for rope soloing.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 23, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
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Roger,
I think a Tibloc would be pretty good as a backup. Certainly faster to put on / take off than a mini-traxion. I am not sure how quickly it would grab on the rope if you started sliding down, though - it might just slide down the rope below you?
I used a mini-traxion and Tibloc for leg hauling on Sentinel, and that was a nice combo, although it did seem to nick some tufts in the sheath a bit. But I don't have one on hand to experiment with as a backup - do you think it would catch OK?
The main thing is that your jugging motion is already adapted to your ascenders. I was using my Jumar motion with the Petzl and was shocked that it slipped. Personally, I would never give up my Jumars for Petzls on a wall, because the extra step of putting the biner on and off the upper holes to put the Petzl ascender on / off the rope is too slow. On the other hand, I'm light with small hands, so the nicer grip on the Petzls is not a factor for me.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 23, 2008 - 07:00pm PT
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Though it's not really designed for this, if you're going to use a Petzl product for roped soloing, the Gri gri is a better bet.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 23, 2008 - 07:01pm PT
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I think a Tibloc would be pretty good as a backup.
Those things make me nervous, with all those sharp teeth. I trashed the sheath on one of my ropes playing with rigging a self capture short hauling with one. Tore a long ways down the sheath. Ugh.
I think nothing beats tying in short, but, that's pretty hard to do with a pig on the line. I've heard of folks using a Prusik above a jumar (easy to push up with each stroke, but, I'd wonder if it'd catch). Maybe a french braid?
Something like an USBA basic might work (and be lightweight). Those things travel up a loaded rope pretty smoothly.
Yikes...
My condolences to the friends and family of James. He seems to have positively touched a bunch of folks 'round here.
-Brian in SLC
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Oct 23, 2008 - 10:51pm PT
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Sad Sad Sad......
Ron, the only way there wasn't a swing from the third belay onto a rope hanging from the forth belay to the top of the second is if they stopped just above the roof as pitch two, then stopped at the next set of anchors in the middle of pitch three, thinking they were on top of pitch 3 and calling the real top of pitch 3 pitch 4.
The real 4th pitch traverses left a bit.
Hey, haven't you been on this route befor? :-)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 23, 2008 - 11:20pm PT
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Yeah, but never dressed as a 15 year old girl,..
Anyway, that's why I'm wondering about the exact location.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Oct 24, 2008 - 09:15am PT
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pumB
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darod
Big Wall climber
South Side Billburg
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Oct 24, 2008 - 10:44am PT
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Very sad news. My heartfelt condolences to the friends and family of our brother...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 24, 2008 - 11:09am PT
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It surprises me that so many people are hung up on the fundamentals like how to back up your ascenders, using a top biner, etc., and knowing about all the things that can destroy your haul line. I guess you really only come to know this stuff by hanging out in Yosemite for a summer or two and not everyone does that. There are no books out right now that go into very much detail, and not everyone pays close attention to everything that comes across the net. Maybe Chris's new book will fill the apparent void.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 24, 2008 - 12:26pm PT
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"you really only come to know this stuff by hanging out in Yosemite"
Wow, dude, must be the center of the universe.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 24, 2008 - 01:07pm PT
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Okay - well - by going through the wall circuit and interacting with a lot of people. That usually involves spending some time in the Valley. In Zion, for example, there is no place where people meet and interact and talk to each other about their climbing, at least not when I was spending time there.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
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Yeah JLP
I just came from the cafe this morning and all the big wall climbers are in there for their mornings briefings.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Oct 24, 2008 - 02:19pm PT
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In other words, you mean that someone was getting tooled ...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 24, 2008 - 03:44pm PT
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The reason I said the Tibloc would be pretty good for Roger is that he is ascending many hundreds of feet on fixed rope, doing bolt replacement. The Tibloc should slide up the rope easily, so it should provide minimal distraction, and some chance of holding if things go wrong. It might also just get dropped during one of the many times it has to be removed to get around an anchor or knot between two ropes.
In general, I don't use a backup for my Jumars when going up a fixed rope (anchored below me) - two are on the rope at all times, so they are redundant, and they don't slip under normal clean/dry conditions (they can slip on an icy or very muddy rope if the cam teeth get clogged). If you have to take one off to get around an anchor, you can clip the anchor temporarily.
When following an aid pitch on Jumars, I tie into the end of the rope, and I tie in short whenever I will take one Jumar off the rope (such as on a traverse). I don't use any third device on the rope.
I have heard of people using a third device on the rope - prusik, GriGri, mini-traxion, Tibloc. They have too many disadvantages for me, but they may have some value to others.
 prusik (above ascenders): maybe OK if one of your ascenders fails or slips, but you have the other one on the rope, right? Poor for following an aid traverse, since it is slow to remove and replace. May fail to hold a short fall - see mongrel's post below.
GriGri (below ascenders): OK once there is a lot of rope weight below you; not so good before that. Doesn't work on a tight rope, but that should be avoided or rare. Heavy if carried only for this, but weight not a problem if you prefer to belay with it, like on an aid wall.
mini-traxion: less drag than a GriGri. Not helpful for belaying, but good as a backup ascender or hauler.
Tibloc: minimal drag, light, OK as an emergency backup ascender or hauler with a spare pulley (a bit hard on the rope sheath if used a lot). Might not catch if you are sliding down the rope, if it slides down below you?
Wild Country ropeman would be great as a light backup device for ascending a rope, but it would provide drag as a third device (similar to GriGri and mini-traxion), unless the rope is somewhat tight from below (possibly because of a lot of rope weight below you). It might be best for self-rescue if you are not climbing with ascenders. Prusiks are lighter and cheaper, but slower to use.
If you are looking for a backup device because you are using Petzl Ascensions that slip, clip those top holes with a biner for ascending long fixed ropes. If you are following an aid pitch which traverses, don't use these ascenders - get some ascenders that do not slip. Otherwise you will spend a lot of time moving a biner off and on the top holes in your top ascender (or you could just rely on your backup knot; you are risking a longer fall, though). If you are too cheap to get better ascenders, or you have other reasons to stick with Petzls, then you are in the market for a backup device.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Oct 24, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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It's my impression that there is no backup that will work reliably and safely on a taut rope. I think any of the belay or ascending devices will have the same issue, if they slip at all, then catch, you can have a sheath fall and the same tragedy as James. Seems to me I recall a tech tip in one of the rags about using a Tibloc for simul-belay or some such, and a Petzl rep wrote in strenuously recommending AGAINST using a Tibloc for any application in which it might experience a fall. I know from experience that a prussik can easily fail to stop even a very short fall. Unless it engages instantaneously (thus, no fall, just shock weighting of the loop), the thin material begins to melt in only a foot or two of movement, lubricating the surface and sliding yet more... before melting right through not far below. Whatever ascender you are using in this application, I think you must be absolutely sure it has engaged every time you weight it, a bit in the manner of initial steps in bounce testing. It's slow, but you can be sure to stay alive. Or just bring an extra rope. All depends on whether you are OK with a certain likelihood of dying just jumaring a pitch.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 24, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
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to me it sounds a very scary to
1. jug a line that is being held by the teeth of the pro-traxion
and
2. that line is also holding the weight of the haulbag(s)
... i'm scared shitless enough when i rappel off the haul-line (when soloing) and the line is anchored through the pro-traxion's teeth (backedup into the anchor, but held by the teeth none-the-less) .. -- when you rappel its a much smoother operation. --
.. well .. if we're trying to learn here .. i'd say that
"Be extremely careful jugging a loaded line, and don't do it unless it absolutely neccesary" works for me.
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